History repeats itself. Pilots start thinking DOH matters

[ThisistheDream]

There are 2000 hire NWA pilots junior to 2007 hire DL pilots on the new DL seniority list. The arbitrators made the decision looking at fleet types and what each airline brought to the table. Then, it was pretty much brought together in relative fashion. These 3 "neutrals" (arbitrators) made the decision after looking at the facts. That is the way it goes. Some of the FNWA pilots are probably upset understandably, but a stronger company and future retirements will help soothe some of that I hope.


Bye Bye--General Lee

I can see how some may think its not fair becuase of the DOH from 2000 vs. 2007 seems like alot of time of service difference, but the 2000 NWA hires where furloughed with in 1 yr to 1.5 yrs and the 2007 DAL where never furloughed. If you take the actual time of service at the airline the 2000-2001 NWA hires where at NWA the same if not actually less time of service at the airline vs. the DAL 2007 hires

 

[Sonny Crockett]

I think he is trying to start a UAL vs CAL merger war. You see, if the UAL pilots and the CAL pilots get a merger done with anywhere near the success of DAL/NWA, the end will be near for US Airways. Sending us down the same road that America West and USAir took will probably bring down the combined UAL/CAL thus giving them a chance. That or the entire post was just flamebait...

--As a UAL guy it's good to see some CAL guys are level headed. Good luck to us all and if this Merger happens I will buy a beer on my Boat in Kemah!

 

[eaglesview]

I have to agree DOH, or in my opinion which counts for nothing, length of service does matter. If you ignore this as in the case of AAA/AWA you end up with younger pilots senior to older ones. All this does is cause massive amounts of stagnation and resentment. There is no such thing anymore as "career expectations." Thats a bunch of crap. In the 80's USAir was on the top of the heap. In the early 90's when I got hired at UAL I was "set for life." Look at us now, we may have a great future or be gone who the hell knows. Nobody on this forum that's for sure. The CO junior folks may think they have it made but I would argue they haven't allowed enough time to pass by to see enough industry cycles. Pilots are like a bunch of children in a candy store. They just grab grab grab without any thought of what is right. Reminds me of that George Harrison song "I Me Mine."

 

[MCDU]

I have to agree DOH, or in my opinion which counts for nothing, length of service does matter. If you ignore this as in the case of AAA/AWA you end up with younger pilots senior to older ones. All this does is cause massive amounts of stagnation and resentment. There is no such thing anymore as "career expectations." Thats a bunch of crap. In the 80's USAir was on the top of the heap. In the early 90's when I gio hired at UAL I was "set for life." Look at us now, we may have a gtreat furure or be gone who the hell knows. Nobody on this forum that's for sure. The CO junior folks may think they have it made but I would argue they haven't allowed enough time to pass by to see enough industry cycles. Pilots are like a bunch of children in a candy store. They just grab grab grab without any thought of what is right. Reminds me of that George Harrison song "I Me Mine."

Spot on. The shortsightedness is unbelievable and is one of the reasons why we are in this mess. It is nice to see someone post who sees the big picture. Pilot greed has killed our profession. From B-scale, to PFT in order to jump ahead, Scope relief allowing outsourcing, age 65 and not excepting DOH in mergers has all contributed to where we are now. Pilot greed is just as bad as management. We are our own worst enemy and I blame ALPA to letting it happen.

M

 

[pilotyip]

As stated before, Adam Smith figured it out 230 years ago. "In every economic transaction each individual looks out for their own best interest" Brotherhood is only supported if it benefits the individual. Senior guys rule, it is a fact of life.

 

[General Lee]

I have to agree DOH, or in my opinion which counts for nothing, length of service does matter. If you ignore this as in the case of AAA/AWA you end up with younger pilots senior to older ones. All this does is cause massive amounts of stagnation and resentment. There is no such thing anymore as "career expectations." Thats a bunch of crap. In the 80's USAir was on the top of the heap. In the early 90's when I got hired at UAL I was "set for life." Look at us now, we may have a great future or be gone who the hell knows. Nobody on this forum that's for sure. The CO junior folks may think they have it made but I would argue they haven't allowed enough time to pass by to see enough industry cycles. Pilots are like a bunch of children in a candy store. They just grab grab grab without any thought of what is right. Reminds me of that George Harrison song "I Me Mine."

What you seem to miss is that USAir was going to liquidate. So, looking at "career expectations" at that point, there were NONE. Without AWA's credit (do you pay for a house with cash, or a mortgage?), USAir East would have been GONE. No doubt about it. Then, throw in the fact that USAir East guys accepted BINDING ARBITRATION, then it looks more and more like they are babies.

And, McDoosh has no idea what he is talking about. If pilot groups can't come together and do it themselves, then they have to go to arbitration. That is the new Norm.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[eaglesview]

What you seem to miss is that USAir was going to liquidate. So, looking at "career expectations" at that point, there were NONE. Without AWA's credit (do you pay for a house with cash, or a mortgage?), USAir East would have been GONE. No doubt about it. Then, throw in the fact that USAir East guys accepted BINDING ARBITRATION, then it looks more and more like they are babies.

And, McDoosh has no idea what he is talking about. If pilot groups can't come together and do it themselves, then they have to go to arbitration. That is the new Norm.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Let's see TWA was on their last breath for about 7 years, Frontier was finished just a few months into their bankruptcy, half the people on here are convinced UAL is going to die. My point is stop acting like you know what was going to happen. Nobody does. If we did we wouldn't be typing away here we would have capitalized on the market and be retired by now.

I would agree that USAir in this case midjudged the arbitraters decision but I still think DOH, Length of service does matter. My post was not just about AAA/AWA but mergers in general General.

 

[becket]

I blame ALPA to letting it happen.

M

Of course you do. That's all Easties can think about. Nevermind the fact that the "ALPA" that has allegedly hurt them so many times over the years are, in fact, themselves.

Go whine to someone who gives a sh*t.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

A large part of the "success" of the DAL/NWA list merger was the new company paid each pilot something on the order of 3/4 of year's salary to merge. A kind of signing bonus. That went a long way to quell and complaints someone might have had to being plus or minus a handful of seniority numbers from what they thought they deserved.

Might want to check your facts, hoss.

My stock is worth around 40 grand right now that I got from the merger. It tripled in price from when I got it after the merger (was only 4 bucks a share then..now its right around 13).

I made 105,000 last year. Last I checked, 40 grand isn't 3/4 of my pay...much less the 13 or so that it was originally worth when I got it.


Wanna try that again?

 

[Phrogs4ever]

DOH = windfall.

Relative seniority = fair, no change to QOL.

 

[General Lee]

Let's see TWA was on their last breath for about 7 years, Frontier was finished just a few months into their bankruptcy, half the people on here are convinced UAL is going to die. My point is stop acting like you know what was going to happen. Nobody does. If we did we wouldn't be typing away here we would have capitalized on the market and be retired by now.

I would agree that USAir in this case midjudged the arbitraters decision but I still think DOH, Length of service does matter. My post was not just about AAA/AWA but mergers in general General.

Well, you are allowed an opinion, one that probably a lot of people share. When it comes down to it though, it really is up to the arbitrators. USAir/AWA had one arbitrator, Nicelau, and the DL/NWA SLI had 3 arbitrators. They looked at the evidence and heard both sides, and they gave their rulings. Both of those cases had relative seniority, with USAir East getting the top 500 spots due to their INTL flying vs mainly domestic AWA flying. That will mostly likely be what happens in the future, again with small tweaking for each case.

And, we all know (and most analysts agree) that USAir East was about to die. It was liquidation city, and many other legacies were going to watch it die and then pick up the pieces. AWA came in with their line of credit and saved them. Had they had a joint contract before the SLI, a lot of the current squabbling might have been avoided, but they went for the SLI first, and then infighting ensued. The egos from those East Guys would have been smaller had they gone away via liquidation and then tried to get hired at Virgin America 6 months later......but they cannot see that, to this day.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[eaglesview]

DOH = windfall.

Relative seniority = fair, no change to QOL.

Just playing devils advocate here.

Company ABC starts up with 4 737's. After two years of service they get bought by AMR because AMR is looking for a quick easy increase in lift. The top guy has been at work for 24 months and uses your arguement as stated above and is immediatley looking for the keys to 777 parked at the next gate.

Just saying, you cannot make blanket statements like that, they don't always work.

 

[RedDogC130]

DOH is only good if you are senior...

 

[Phrogs4ever]

Just playing devils advocate here.

Company ABC starts up with 4 737's. After two years of service they get bought by AMR because AMR is looking for a quick easy increase in lift. The top guy has been at work for 24 months and uses your arguement as stated above and is immediatley looking for the keys to 777 parked at the next gate.

Just saying, you cannot make blanket statements like that, they don't always work.

1. If you need to use hyperbole to make a point you already lost the debate.

2. Your scenario is not a merger.

3. Still, you're talking about merging ~60 pilots with over 11,000 pilots. Yes relative seniority still applies. Is your assumption that a 737 Captain cannot bid 777 Captain and be successful? If you're concerned, build a 3-5 year fence and quit crying.

 

[General Lee]

Just playing devils advocate here.

Company ABC starts up with 4 737's. After two years of service they get bought by AMR because AMR is looking for a quick easy increase in lift. The top guy has been at work for 24 months and uses your arguement as stated above and is immediatley looking for the keys to 777 parked at the next gate.

Just saying, you cannot make blanket statements like that, they don't always work.

The arbitrators would look at that scenario and probably do the same thing that Nicelau did. USAir East had INTL flying and AWA didn't, so he put the top 500 pilots from the East on top of the rest of the list. He looked at everything they brought to the table and the differences of each airline. If AMR bought a new company with little or no history, I would think the arbitrators would take that into account, and place them within the list accordingly, but they very likely would NOT be just stapled. Nicelau showed that airlines can be different, and that arbitrators can put 500 on top of the list, or more if needed.


Bye Bye--General Lee