History repeats itself. Pilots start thinking DOH matters

[MCDU]

Well, for all those pilots who bashed the so called pathetic 17 year F/O at USAIR. Guess what. American will have them and so will United. Just to list a few. A long time ago USAIR had fast upgrades and many chose Piedmont for their growth.

Another airline like that is Jetblue. They will have almost no upgrades unless they grow. Jetblue reminds me of Piedmont. 2-3 years difference was all it took to become a longtime F/O. No big age differences between F/O and Capt.

Sadly, if one continues to merge your relative position will stagnant and younger pilots with many years less will get in front of you. What to do? Quit and go to Republic for a fast upgrade. I do not think so.

A CAL United merger would be a disaster for United F/O's. United pilots would be in the same boat as East USAIR pilots. With DOH everyone gets a chance and will not be taken to the cleaners. DOH is fair. The problem is the greed and entitlement that often shows gets in the way. Management loves merging with younger less paid pilots. Less captains with higher pay.

Seniority matters. We all know that airlines merge and mangament likes merging with new and younger lower paid pilots. Demand DOH and stop the insanity of discounting your DOH. Its all you have.

Somewhere in your career it will make sense. Just ask the Piedmont pilots at USAIR that did not want DOH.

 

[pilotyip]

Look at TWA 747 in the 90's, Ca 59, F/O 57, F/E 56

 

[bizicmo]

MCDU don't try to bring two decent airlines into the same grouping as that abortion called scareways. now continue on with your rant about nothing.

 

[Mike man]

Is this some new revelation MCDU? Hasn't DOH always mattered for the same reasons you mentioned above?

This just in...MCDU finally gets it!

 

[IAHERJ]

I think he is trying to start a UAL vs CAL merger war. You see, if the UAL pilots and the CAL pilots get a merger done with anywhere near the success of DAL/NWA, the end will be near for US Airways. Sending us down the same road that America West and USAir took will probably bring down the combined UAL/CAL thus giving them a chance. That or the entire post was just flamebait...

 

[Yuppyguppy]

Agreed...a merger is likely in the next 2 years @ CAL and UAL.

 

[General Lee]

Well, for all those pilots who bashed the so called pathetic 17 year F/O at USAIR. Guess what. American will have them and so will United. Just to list a few. A long time ago USAIR had fast upgrades and many chose Piedmont for their growth.

Another airline like that is Jetblue. They will have almost no upgrades unless they grow. Jetblue reminds me of Piedmont. 2-3 years difference was all it took to become a longtime F/O. No big age differences between F/O and Capt.

Sadly, if one continues to merge your relative position will stagnant and younger pilots with many years less will get in front of you. What to do? Quit and go to Republic for a fast upgrade. I do not think so.

A CAL United merger would be a disaster for United F/O's. United pilots would be in the same boat as East USAIR pilots. With DOH everyone gets a chance and will not be taken to the cleaners. DOH is fair. The problem is the greed and entitlement that often shows gets in the way. Management loves merging with younger less paid pilots. Less captains with higher pay.

Seniority matters. We all know that airlines merge and mangament likes merging with new and younger lower paid pilots. Demand DOH and stop the insanity of discounting your DOH. Its all you have.

Somewhere in your career it will make sense. Just ask the Piedmont pilots at USAIR that did not want DOH.

It just doesn't matter what pilots think. In any future merger, the pilot groups will initially come together to talk about it, won't be able to get a list themselves, and then go to binding arbitration. The arbitrators will look at recent SLI decisions, and render one very close, tweaking it a bit for special circumstances. The NIC award and the recent DL/NWA award are the new standards.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Dan Roman]

It just doesn't matter what pilots think. In any future merger, the pilot groups will initially come together to talk about it, won't be able to get a list themselves, and then go to binding arbitration. The arbitrators will look at recent SLI decisions, and render one very close, tweaking it a bit for special circumstances. The NIC award and the recent DL/NWA award are the new standards.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Well I agree the DAL/NWA is the new standard. From what I have seen you guys did it right.
As far as USAir and AWA. I don't think you could have tried to merge a more disparate group. It just doesn't make sense to put the junior F/O of one ahead of of a senior Captain at another and I can certainly see why someone hired in 1986 thinks they should be senior to someone hired in 1996 at the other airline. That merger was a train wreck no matter what and the only solution was for both parties to agree to binding arbitration and than get on with their lives without looking back. Not sure what part of BINDING ARBITRATION the east guys didn't understand. But they sure are paying a steep price for it.

 

[densoo]

You see, if the UAL pilots and the CAL pilots get a merger done with anywhere near the success of DAL/NWA, the end will be near for US Airways.

A large part of the "success" of the DAL/NWA list merger was the new company paid each pilot something on the order of 3/4 of year's salary to merge. A kind of signing bonus. That went a long way to quell and complaints someone might have had to being plus or minus a handful of seniority numbers from what they thought they deserved.

 

[Dewey Oxberger]

Well, for all those pilots who bashed the so called pathetic 17 year F/O at USAIR. Guess what. American will have them and so will United. Just to list a few. A long time ago USAIR had fast upgrades and many chose Piedmont for their growth.

Another airline like that is Jetblue. They will have almost no upgrades unless they grow. Jetblue reminds me of Piedmont. 2-3 years difference was all it took to become a longtime F/O. No big age differences between F/O and Capt.

Sadly, if one continues to merge your relative position will stagnant and younger pilots with many years less will get in front of you. What to do? Quit and go to Republic for a fast upgrade. I do not think so.

A CAL United merger would be a disaster for United F/O's. United pilots would be in the same boat as East USAIR pilots. With DOH everyone gets a chance and will not be taken to the cleaners. DOH is fair. The problem is the greed and entitlement that often shows gets in the way. Management loves merging with younger less paid pilots. Less captains with higher pay.

Seniority matters. We all know that airlines merge and mangament likes merging with new and younger lower paid pilots. Demand DOH and stop the insanity of discounting your DOH. Its all you have.

Somewhere in your career it will make sense. Just ask the Piedmont pilots at USAIR that did not want DOH.

So just to make sure we're on the same page here, you believe a UAL pilot with 6 months service who's been on furlough for over 8 years should be senior to former Captains displaced to 777 FO at CAL with 5 years continuous service and 30% of the active seniority list behind them, right? Yeah right, no windfall here.....

 

[MCDU]

CAL pilots need to avoid a merger with UAL. It will be the same train wreck as the AAA AWA merger. It has the same dynamics. A 1997 United Pilot does not want a 28 year old 2005 hire ahead of them.

M

 

[General Lee]

A large part of the "success" of the DAL/NWA list merger was the new company paid each pilot something on the order of 3/4 of year's salary to merge. A kind of signing bonus. That went a long way to quell and complaints someone might have had to being plus or minus a handful of seniority numbers from what they thought they deserved.

3/4 of a year's salary? There were some stock options given (depending on seniority--3300-3700 shares at about $5 a share at the time), a 17% raise over 4 years (about 4% a year with 5% the first year) for all pilots, and a larger raise for former NWA pilots from their past rates. The DL guys didn't get a larger pay increase initially, but did better seniority wise due to the arbitrators' decision. I don't know where you get the 3/4 of year pay?

One key aspect was that we got a Joint Contract together done prior to the SLI, and USAir/AWA did not. Now, they are still flying under seperate contracts, at different rates for the same planes. If UA and CAL merge, they had better come up with better rates for BOTH of them, and CAL ALPA better squeeze CAL management with their scope provision and get that extra cash and also get rid of all of the extra UAL RJs floating around. Keep the CAL scope, and also limit Dash-8-400 flying if you can.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

CAL pilots need to avoid a merger with UAL. It will be the same train wreck as the AAA AWA merger. It has the same dynamics. A 1997 United Pilot does not want a 28 year old 2005 hire ahead of them.

M

There are 2000 hire NWA pilots junior to 2007 hire DL pilots on the new DL seniority list. The arbitrators made the decision looking at fleet types and what each airline brought to the table. Then, it was pretty much brought together in relative fashion. These 3 "neutrals" (arbitrators) made the decision after looking at the facts. That is the way it goes. Some of the FNWA pilots are probably upset understandably, but a stronger company and future retirements will help soothe some of that I hope.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[becket]

CAL pilots need to avoid a merger with UAL. It will be the same train wreck as the AAA AWA merger. It has the same dynamics. A 1997 United Pilot does not want a 28 year old 2005 hire ahead of them.

M

The AMW/AAA merger isn't a trainwreck at all. Just because a bunch of geezers and losers (who couldn't find a better airline to work) for accepted recall to an airline in a perpetual death spiral are *allegedly* super pissed off about the Nic award is meaningless.

You all can take your DOH and shove it where your heads have been the last few years.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Doesn't matter. DoH is not a feature of either the ALPA Merger/Frag policy OR Allegheny/Mohawk. So all SLIs in the future will be either agreed to or arbitrated. And if you agree to arbitration (USAPA!) in advance, then you take what you get.

 

[ThisistheDream]

There are 2000 hire NWA pilots junior to 2007 hire DL pilots on the new DL seniority list. The arbitrators made the decision looking at fleet types and what each airline brought to the table. Then, it was pretty much brought together in relative fashion. These 3 "neutrals" (arbitrators) made the decision after looking at the facts. That is the way it goes. Some of the FNWA pilots are probably upset understandably, but a stronger company and future retirements will help soothe some of that I hope.


Bye Bye--General Lee

I can see how some may think its not fair becuase of the DOH from 2000 vs. 2007 seems like alot of time of service difference, but the 2000 NWA hires where furloughed with in 1 yr to 1.5 yrs and the 2007 DAL where never furloughed. If you take the actual time of service at the airline the 2000-2001 NWA hires where at NWA the same if not actually less time of service at the airline vs. the DAL 2007 hires

 

[Sonny Crockett]

I think he is trying to start a UAL vs CAL merger war. You see, if the UAL pilots and the CAL pilots get a merger done with anywhere near the success of DAL/NWA, the end will be near for US Airways. Sending us down the same road that America West and USAir took will probably bring down the combined UAL/CAL thus giving them a chance. That or the entire post was just flamebait...

--As a UAL guy it's good to see some CAL guys are level headed. Good luck to us all and if this Merger happens I will buy a beer on my Boat in Kemah!

 

[eaglesview]

I have to agree DOH, or in my opinion which counts for nothing, length of service does matter. If you ignore this as in the case of AAA/AWA you end up with younger pilots senior to older ones. All this does is cause massive amounts of stagnation and resentment. There is no such thing anymore as "career expectations." Thats a bunch of crap. In the 80's USAir was on the top of the heap. In the early 90's when I got hired at UAL I was "set for life." Look at us now, we may have a great future or be gone who the hell knows. Nobody on this forum that's for sure. The CO junior folks may think they have it made but I would argue they haven't allowed enough time to pass by to see enough industry cycles. Pilots are like a bunch of children in a candy store. They just grab grab grab without any thought of what is right. Reminds me of that George Harrison song "I Me Mine."

 

[MCDU]

I have to agree DOH, or in my opinion which counts for nothing, length of service does matter. If you ignore this as in the case of AAA/AWA you end up with younger pilots senior to older ones. All this does is cause massive amounts of stagnation and resentment. There is no such thing anymore as "career expectations." Thats a bunch of crap. In the 80's USAir was on the top of the heap. In the early 90's when I gio hired at UAL I was "set for life." Look at us now, we may have a gtreat furure or be gone who the hell knows. Nobody on this forum that's for sure. The CO junior folks may think they have it made but I would argue they haven't allowed enough time to pass by to see enough industry cycles. Pilots are like a bunch of children in a candy store. They just grab grab grab without any thought of what is right. Reminds me of that George Harrison song "I Me Mine."

Spot on. The shortsightedness is unbelievable and is one of the reasons why we are in this mess. It is nice to see someone post who sees the big picture. Pilot greed has killed our profession. From B-scale, to PFT in order to jump ahead, Scope relief allowing outsourcing, age 65 and not excepting DOH in mergers has all contributed to where we are now. Pilot greed is just as bad as management. We are our own worst enemy and I blame ALPA to letting it happen.

M

 

[pilotyip]

As stated before, Adam Smith figured it out 230 years ago. "In every economic transaction each individual looks out for their own best interest" Brotherhood is only supported if it benefits the individual. Senior guys rule, it is a fact of life.