High Tension Van Rides

[Nevets]

I don't hate ASA members because they are ALPA. I actually feel sorry for them that they are being brainwashed by the big ALPO machine. ALPO is so desperate to risk sacrificing ASA to be able and say SEE if you have ALPA this is what we can do. It isn't very union like of ALPA to want to sacrifice ASA pilots to further their agendas. Even ASAs own pilots admit ALPA is using them like puppets. If ASA pilots are interested in putting down the koolaid now is the time. There are lots of SkyWest anti-ALPA pilots starting to band together. I think it is time to get a SkyWest-ASA anti-union/ALPA coalition going. Those who want to "burn the place down" need not apply.

Lets just say that what you say is true. If it is true, ASA pilots are able to vote no on the TA and send the NC back to the table. Or they can recall the MEC members. Or they can vote to decertify. The point is that at least ASA pilots have these options. The Skywest pilots with SAPA do NOT have ANY of those options. They just have to take it whether they like it or not.

 

[Nevets]

What doesn't give ALPA a chance is the holier than thou attitude a lot of the union members take. If they would try to wine us and dine us more maybe they could win. They provide cheap crappy food and call anyone who disagrees with them an idiot. People don't want a hostile work environment here at SkyWest.

You are stereotyping. Not all pro-ALPA people are like that. I, for example, don't call people names. I think there is a lot of frustration on the part of the pro-ALPA guys/gals and sometimes it comes out in a bad way. Especially in the written form as it is here. Its just people being passionate in something they believe is a worthwhile cause.

 

[Nevets]

I've been an ALPA member before and I do think they serve a purpose and have in the past done positive things for their members.
However, I don't support them at SkyWest. I don't feel they will do any good here.

I'm sorry. I don't understand these two diametrically opposite statements. Can you please reconcile them for me?

 

[Nevets]

The question is how are you going to have a leading contract and still be competitive out there? You can talk all you want about XJET but the fact is they still lost flying with CO. It is yet to be determined if the point to point flying will work. There is only so much growth out there for regionals left. XJET is also the exception to the rule. Every other new DCI airline has lower compensation than we do.

If pilots from different carriers get together, they will prevent the whipsawing that the majors do on the regionals. ALPA already have a caucus of ALPA represented regional carriers that meet on a regular basis to prevent the whipsawing. This would be a whole of a lot easier if all regional airlines were represented by ALPA, hence the current drive at Skywest. It can be done and a little of it is happening already. You mentioned that XJT landed the Delta contract despite having a good contract. There is no need to sell yourself short because you have a perception that your company will not grow.

At XJT, we actually fly MORE block hours now than we did when we only did COEX flying.

 

[Nevets]

Delicious frosty lemon lime. The SKW koolaid is much tastier and cheaper than ALPA koolaid. SKW koolaid = free. ALPA koolaid = 2% of your paycheck each month.

If you ever use the Aeromedical service to try to get your medical certificate back, the 1.95% in dues will more than likely pay for itself. But if it doesn't, it will pay for itself if you ever need legal representation. In other words, you can think of it as career insurance with A LOT more perks to go along with it. AND its tax deductible.

 

[Nevets]

I'll revitalize this thread:

Unions= Great protection from greedy management

Unions= The best thing we have right now for any sort of representation

Unions= Potential absolute power resulting in absolute corruption

Unions= Caught up in predictable and tired bygone policies that managements use against them

Unions= Unequal representation when representing too many groups with diverging interests (think major versus regional, and now regional versus regional here)

ALPA can be a great thing for all pilots. It is not in its current state. MAJOR revamping needs to occur from the ground up, including more frequent audits and leadership rotations. ALPA cannot represent all the pilots in the world. It is simply an unrealistic expectation, and quite frankly, if ALPA want's to run itself efficiently and comptetitively (against management), it must not put itself into the situation where it completely monopolizes the unionization of airline pilots. We are getting closer to that and we can already see the breakdown in efficiencies and capital control.

It isn't pilot against pilot, or airline against airline here. If we all want what is best, then the pilot group of each airline must decide what is best for it in a democratic way. Special interest groups must not use most of the resources over the majority voice either.

I'm not sure you understand the structure of ALPA. To be honest, its an association. Every ALPA airline is really its own little union, if you will. They are associated with ALPA national but the MECs independent of ALPA national. ALPA national provides the framework or structure and the tool box for the MEC to operate and serve THEIR own pilots as THEY feel is in the best interest of THEIR own pilots. Each MEC deals with their own management as they see fit.

Because of this bottom up structure and the democratic process put in place by ALPA national, it is very difficult for any corruption to take place.

The reason for ALPA wanting to represent all pilots in the US is to prevent whipsawing and to have the biggest voice possible in DC to help pass pilot friendly legislation.

So your concerns have already and continue to be met.

 

[Nevets]

please spare me.... nobody wants to hear this bs when we are done working for the day

Nobody? According to siucavflight's post, that is not true! Just because you don't want to hear it or agree with it, doesn't mean everybody is the same.

 

[Skywest Pylot]

Jea said,

please spare me.... nobody wants to hear this bs when we are done working for the day

I talk ALPA with the ASA pilots all the time in the van. Be careful with the generic statements.

 

[JPAustin]

Fire away!

I'm not sure you understand the structure of ALPA. To be honest, its an association. Every ALPA airline is really its own little union, if you will. They are associated with ALPA national but the MECs independent of ALPA national. ALPA national provides the framework or structure and the tool box for the MEC to operate and serve THEIR own pilots as THEY feel is in the best interest of THEIR own pilots. Each MEC deals with their own management as they see fit.

Because of this bottom up structure and the democratic process put in place by ALPA national, it is very difficult for any corruption to take place.

The reason for ALPA wanting to represent all pilots in the US is to prevent whipsawing and to have the biggest voice possible in DC to help pass pilot friendly legislation.

So your concerns have already and continue to be met.

With all due respect, I sincerely and wholeheartedly disagree with your statement, save a few of the facts you correctly highlighted. Yes, ALPA is bottom up and democratic and each state (group) represents its pilots against management and national (ALPA national) does the representation of those groups.

However, you inaccurately stated that it is very difficult for corruption to take place. The largest and most obvious is the fact that every pilot pays a flat "tax" if you will, of, and correct me if I am wrong but I know I am close, 1.25% of their pay. That is entirely unfair to the pilot groups who have less say than the larger groups yet still pay the same percentage. Additionally, it doesn't matter that a major pilot has more pay taken out because he makes more than a regional -- 1.25% hurts a regional pilot more than a major pilot. Finally, the method with which the ALPA royal coffers are used to represent the "majority" needs of the pilots in Washington and elsewhere usually take into account those MECs with the biggest input of money, in other words, the majors.

And nobody cares anymore about the tired old stupid line ALPA comes up with everytime pilots brings up the above. Becoming a major airline pilot is not the end-all be-all to life anymore. Geesh. Why else do you think the RJDC exists? Because a group of regional pilots had spare time on their hands, or because they make some good points about the sins and inequities of ALPA?

Oh yes, another level of corruption is that those with long tenure at national can trend towards separation from the wants and needs of the MECs and go on personal agendas (and you can't say that doesn't happen, because it does) and/or lose touch with the majority needs of ALPA rather than special interest groups (age 60 for example -- there are bigger fish to fry than that FAR, guys).

I could go on with corruption examples but I will move onto other points. ALPA needs to run like a business if it want's to get anything accomplished at the pace and efficiency of the entities ALPA is trying to protect pilots against, a la management. ALPA is a veritable dinosaur when it comes to self-management and its playbook of arbitration is as predictable as the (insert any 0-8 NFL team of your choice) playbook. Managements are, and will continue be, light-years ahead of ALPA in terms of negotiation. Can anyone counter this arguement with facts? My facts are a 50-year lookback on the history of ALPA -- just read Flying the Line I and II (yes, I have) and it is a playbook for managements to follow.

Now, I never said ALPA is a bad thing. It seems like anytime a pilot has a criticism of ALPA, all the ALPA warriors come out of the wood-work and bang their drums. For GODS SAKE, ITS CRITICISM. Oh yes, let me counter your immediate response of "well, that's why you have a vote in your representatives, blah blah blah..." Bull, my vote as a regional pilot has nill effect on the workings of ALPA, pure and simple. If it did, there would have been a change in wages, rigs, etc. a long time ago. There has been plenty of change for major airline pilots, often times on the backs of their regional brethren.

And oh yes, I was a rep, and yes, I was a volunteer, and oh yes, I walked the picket lines. Uh oh, does all that not count now because I (GASP), brought up a criticism and hurt some terribly fragile egos? I left all that crap because anytime I had constructive criticism towards my MEC or ALPA, I was alienated. Hmm, there was a reason I was voted in wasn't there? Something about the campaign I ran on that the pilot group seemed to like?

But I digress. Thus ends the diatribe. Fire away warriors, and best regards.

 

[SkyNation]

JPAustin

sorry you lost your chubby for ALPA. prepare yourself while these guys show you theirs. Dissension will not be tolerated!