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Hey look, Delta wants to add service to Dallas Love Field

waveflyer

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It's ridiculous that in today's airline game, we still don't have a level playing field.

Those "evil" legacy carriers who continue to fly to all the no-money podunks out there for the people.

I would really like to see the special cities and fares once JB and SWA gets their silver platter handed to them.

You're not an authority on a "level playing field" Bill.
Not in the airline business and not in the career- you're just greedy and anything that doesn't go your favor is defined as unfair.

Get a life. Realize that delta reneged on $billions to get in the strong position they are in now- is that level??
And realize that your pilot group helped to create and continue to create an underclass of pilots that send their profits to subsidize your pay without any seniority -

Level field out of lumberg- you got a set making that claim sellout
 

Cometman

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BK is no fun, and I hope you never go thru it. None of us wanted to go thru it, *willingly*, In other words: it's not like you have to now compete with a bunch of pilots who sponsored their own training, worked for chronically low wages for decades, and flew airplanes for no pension, right?

Frankly, I have a problem with you even using the word "compete". You're not "competing" for anything. You're company is a war and terror profiteer simply waiting to take advantage of the next crisis, the next spoils, or the next Texas airport stunt. How about you use the word "exploit"? That's a bit more fitting for you.

Do you really think the business world is suppose to be fair. Everybody is out to make money. You do what you have to do to succeed. Nobody said life is fair. Your lost is somebody else's gain. Life is like that. You drop the ball and somebody else picks it up and runs. That is the way it goes. You need to talk to somebody so you can get some help. You have some problems you need to attend too.
 

redflyer65

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You're not an authority on a "level playing field" Bill.
Not in the airline business and not in the career- you're just greedy and anything that doesn't go your favor is defined as unfair.

Get a life. Realize that delta reneged on $billions to get in the strong position they are in now- is that level??
And realize that your pilot group helped to create and continue to create an underclass of pilots that send their profits to subsidize your pay without any seniority -

Level field out of lumberg- you got a set making that claim sellout

Bingo.

Bill is complaining about having to compete AFTER running through bankruptcy to shed billions in debt? Yea, that's a strong argument.

I know it wasn't Bill's or Flops decision, but to come on here and cry foul about slot auctions is laughable. How many slots does a combined CAL/UA, NW/DL, US/AA need? All of them?

And Bill,

The 'evil' legacy carriers for the most part aren't forced to fly to Podunk airports...I imagine they do because they charge an @ssload of money for fly out of those small towns (read captive audience), and then turn around and pay the delta CONNECTION workers jacksh!t. It's a good setup for Mother Delta and RA thanks to DALPA allowing it. Not such a good deal for the workers having to do the work.
 
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General Lee

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Bingo.

Bill is complaining about having to compete AFTER running through bankruptcy to shed billions in debt? Yea, that's a strong argument.

I know it wasn't Bill's or Flops decision, but to come on here and cry foul about slot auctions is laughable. How many slots does a combined CAL/UA, NW/DL, US/AA need? All of them?

And Bill,

The 'evil' legacy carriers for the most part aren't forced to fly to Podunk airports...I imagine they do because they charge an @ssload of money for fly out of those small towns (read captive audience), and then turn around and pay the delta CONNECTION workers jacksh!t. It's a good setup for Mother Delta and RA thanks to DALPA allowing it. Not such a good deal for the workers having to do the work.

Remember Red, SWA cut 17 former AT cities because they thought a 737 couldn't make money in those specific markets. You had the chance, but your company dumped them. The planes were too big.

Next you think Dalpa can set rates for Connection carriers? Can Dalpa also control what DL pays to caterers? How about Madison Ave types doing the ad campaigns? How much power do you think Dalpa has? I guess a lot. Does Swapa have the power to raise wages? Why didn't you have parity with the AT guys then? They fly the same type planes you do (737s), for a lot cheaper. Explain SWAPA's lack of power to change that from the date the joint contract was signed.



Bye Bye---General Lee
 

General Lee

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You're not an authority on a "level playing field" Bill.
Not in the airline business and not in the career- you're just greedy and anything that doesn't go your favor is defined as unfair.

Get a life. Realize that delta reneged on $billions to get in the strong position they are in now- is that level??
And realize that your pilot group helped to create and continue to create an underclass of pilots that send their profits to subsidize your pay without any seniority -

Level field out of lumberg- you got a set making that claim sellout

Level the playing field Wave with the AT guys, flying the same planes you do, 737s. Well, at least the outgoing 717 guys won't have to pay for 737 types---but that cost may cause profits to tumble, right?


Bye Bye---General Lee
 

redflyer65

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Remember Red, SWA cut 17 former AT cities because they thought a 737 couldn't make money in those specific markets. Thanks for making my point. We go where we can make money. Delta just outsources to a lower carrier then pays crap wages and gouges the passenger for higher fares. Get it?

You had the chance, but your company dumped them. The planes were too big. We go to Lubbock, Midland, and Amarillo to....and make money with larger planes. You can't even outsource those routes and make money. Big, big difference.

Next you think Dalpa can set rates for Connection carriers? Should have never been a 'Connection' carrier to worry about to begin with. Get it? So the rest of your comments are groundless. These comments >>>> Can Dalpa also control what DL pays to caterers? How about Madison Ave types doing the ad campaigns? How much power do you think Dalpa has? I guess a lot. Does Swapa have the power to raise wages? Yes we do. Why didn't you have parity with the AT guys then? Because that's the deal we both voted on. They fly the same type planes you do (737s), for a lot cheaper. Completely different company with completely different metrics. You've been told this time and time and time again. You have no argument here either. Explain SWAPA's lack of power to change that from the date the joint contract was signed. Because we don't administer or have anything to do with the ALPA contract. Again, that's what both parties voted on. Get it yet? Need me to explain it to you for the one hundredth time?



Bye Bye---General Lee

Some of the weakest arguments I've ever seen on FI. Just because you keep trying to make the same weak argument doesn't make it fact or even close to the truth. You need to come back to reality General.



PS- General, what does any of my comments on the previous post have anything to do with Southwest, AirTran or the way we operate our operation. Great attempt at trying to spin a thread into something we weren't even talking about. WOW.

The conversation was about slot controlled airports. Just to get back on track from the General's attempt at spin.
 
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BILL LUMBERG

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Bingo.

Bill is complaining about having to compete AFTER running through bankruptcy to shed billions in debt? Yea, that's a strong argument.

I know it wasn't Bill's or Flops decision, but to come on here and cry foul about slot auctions is laughable. How many slots does a combined CAL/UA, NW/DL, US/AA need? All of them?

And Bill,

The 'evil' legacy carriers for the most part aren't forced to fly to Podunk airports...I imagine they do because they charge an @ssload of money for fly out of those small towns (read captive audience), and then turn around and pay the delta CONNECTION workers jacksh!t. It's a good setup for Mother Delta and RA thanks to DALPA allowing it. Not such a good deal for the workers having to do the work.

Fair enough Red,

Let's give those slots only to Frontier and Spirit....they are really ULTRA low cost carriers. You guys are like the old news now....

Are you going to cry foul now?

As usual Southwest, let's everybody set the party up, cook, decorate, buy the beer, then shows up the day of like "hey, I'm starving, whatcha got for me!"

Southwest wasn't built on Warrior Spirit, it was built by government handouts and stupid flag ties made in China.
 

General Lee

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Some of the weakest arguments I've ever seen on FI. Just because you keep trying to make the same weak argument doesn't make it fact or even close to the truth. You need to come back to reality General.



PS- General, what does any of my comments on the previous post have anything to do with Southwest, AirTran or the way we operate our operation. Great attempt at trying to spin a thread into something we weren't even talking about. WOW.

The conversation was about slot controlled airports. Just to get back on track from the General's attempt at spin.


Some of the weakest arguments ever..... Haha Red. The AT guys happily voted yes, huh? Riiiiiiiiight. Look at the loyalty problems you will have forever. Your management took sides during a merger. Bad idea! But, you know that.


Yes, you brought up the lower paid DCI pilots, just like your lower paid AT pilots, which should have NEVER happened. I can't believe, again, that you can't see the similarities. Oh well, I agree with you on one thing, your arguments are incredibly weak.



Bye Bye---General Lee
 

redflyer65

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General,

The votes are over and done with. The purchase was announced in 2010, over three years ago.

Meanwhile, your codeshare and outsourcing goes on into eternity. AirTran will be completely merged in about a year. Again, you have no valid argument.

Bill,

I'm all for fair divesture of the slots. If Spirit gets them, fine. If Virgin gets them, fine. Etc. I'm not even close to crying foul, but it seems like you are. Do I have that wrong?
 

canyonblue

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As usual Southwest, let's everybody set the party up, cook, decorate, buy the beer, then shows up the day of like "hey, I'm starving, whatcha got for me!"

Southwest wasn't built on Warrior Spirit, it was built by government handouts and stupid flag ties made in China.

And as usual Delta, takes the money from everybody to set the party up, cook, decorate, buy the beer, then shows up the day of the party like "hey, I'm out of the cash I borrowed and I can't pay you back, so too bad for you"
 

freightdogfred

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I agree! Look at Eastern and Pan Am, they ran out of money and were gone. Today you go to the legacy airline car wash known as bankruptcy and we have to compete with that bullish!t, unbelievable!!!:angryfire

Yea, I used to remember seeing this exact sort of stuff espoused by Robert Crandall, CEO of AA when they were at the top of their game, almost word for word. Times change, obviously, and king of the hill never stays there long.
Change, adapt, or perish seems to be the order of the day. I see many a canyon-blue yet to fully embrace the single engine taxi, yet it's a proven money saver especially for an airline of that size. Any thoughts as to why?
 

freightdogfred

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There will probably be some RJs involved, but at least some of it will be done with 717s

Any damm fool knows ya can't make any money with a 717- It's been posted right here on FI many times. I guess R. Anderson doesn't read FI what an idiot
 

Flopgut

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I know it wasn't Bill's or Flops decision, but to come on here and cry foul about slot auctions is laughable. How many slots does a combined CAL/UA, NW/DL, US/AA need? All of them?

I guess I'm misunderstanding the 2 gates at DLF. These two gates are intended to correspond to flights to slot controlled airports only? In this case DCA and LGA, is that right?
 

Flopgut

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Do you really think the business world is suppose to be fair. Everybody is out to make money. You do what you have to do to succeed. Nobody said life is fair. Your lost is somebody else's gain. Life is like that. You drop the ball and somebody else picks it up and runs. That is the way it goes. You need to talk to somebody so you can get some help. You have some problems you need to attend too.

Delta is not "dropping the ball". SWA [or any other LCC] is not "picking it up". DOJ is taking the ball from Delta and is going to hand it to a LCC. (more than likely SWA) That's as closely aligned with your description of "life" as your diagnosis of me. You're 180 degrees off the mark on both.

Of course life and business isn't suppose to be fair. I completely agree. But for DOJ to specifically say a legacy airline should not or will not get to compete is a real problem.
 
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Cometman

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Delta is not "dropping the ball". SWA is not "picking it up". DOJ is taking the ball from Delta and is going to hand it to an LCC. (more than likely SWA) that is as closely aligned with your description of "life" as your diagnosis of me. You're completely wrong.

Of course life and business isn't suppose to be fair. I completely agree. But for DOJ to specifically say a legacy airline should not or will not get to compete is a real problem.

Like I said, that is life. Move on because 50 years from now it won't make a difference because you probably won't be here. If you are not happy where you are then find another place to be. People are getting tired of listening to you. You should do what Lear70 did and just fade away. You will feel better.
 

HowardBorden

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Any damm fool knows ya can't make any money with a 717- It's been posted right here on FI many times. I guess R. Anderson doesn't read FI what an idiot
Don't take it personal, it's just business! It's not that you can't make money with a 717, it's what airframe can you make more money with? For the SWA business model that question has always been answered with the 737.

"By reaching this agreement, Gary said that we will avoid converting the AirTran 717 fleet into Southwest as part of the AirTran integration. The Company?s aircraft rent expense associated with Boeing 717s will be eliminated as each aircraft is transitioned to Delta. The Company's total estimated AirTran acquisition and integration costs are expected to increase by approximately $50 million as a result of the aircraft transition costs assumed by the Company as part of this 717 agreement. The Company's annual pre-tax results are expected to benefit by approximately $200 million, after all Boeing 717s are transitioned to Delta and replaced with Boeing 737 flying."
 
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General Lee

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I'll take 'what is worth 200 million dollars' for the lead.

And the answer was: "by not paying the AT 737 pilots the same payrates as their new counterparts, the savings and now disloyalty equals..."


Bye Bye---General Lee
 
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HowardBorden

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And the answer was: "by not paying the AT 737 pilots the same payrates as their new counterparts, the savings and now disloyalty equals..."


Bye Bye---General Lee
That equals a union deciding they didn't want a deal which included pay parity from date of signing.
 

redflyer65

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That equals a union deciding they didn't want a deal which included pay parity from date of signing.

And Howard gets the answer right. The point being that SW saves by NOT flying the 717. Equals more than 200 million, every year. General, your shtick is old and really not even relevant. Got something new?
 
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