Hey all you PFTers!

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You guys do realize when you PFTed it was the equivalent of spending your first year working for free? IMO anyone who worked for free deserves to have their commercial license revoked. Be sure to bring up your PFT past often to people you fly with and tell everyone how much you deserve the lifestyle you have now. What goes around comes around.

Ladies-

You can't get on this message board with a moniker and inject a few ones and zeros and expect to solve the PFT "issue" in one post.

What about Doctors. They will go thru a tough training program including the 36+ hour shifts. How safe is that? Should they all band together and say no more? I don't want a fatigued ER doctor woking on me...

Everty profession has some sort of PFT. Unless you are on a scholarship.... You have to invest in your career earnings....

You can't put the burden of PFT on each individual. If you want to effect positive change it must come from influence and power, not individuals... The problem is the senior doctors and pilots simply say.... "I had to do it.. so let the new guys feel the pain"

What about ATP's? If i can go out an get my ATP and be more competitive am I a PFTer? Am I making it worse for others? The fact is there are plenty of routes to take in this country to get a jet job. PFT is making it any more difficult that minority hiring...

In addition, we live in America. Not Europe. Everybody loves the free market system that provides the cheapest product/service available... but suddenly it shouldn't apply to airline industry? We are trained and conditioned to do things cheaper, better, faster... so why is this any different? If you can't compete in the US Economy then go to Europe or Commie China....

Every pilot in this country should refuse to get a four year degree. Why do we need one? The FAA doesn't require it? Why should I have to waste four years and the cash to buy a degree?

 

[FR8mastr]

Ladies-

What about Doctors. They will go thru a tough training program including the 36+ hour shifts. How safe is that? Should they all band together and say no more? I don't want a fatigued ER doctor woking on me...

This discussion was not about safety, however I agree I also dont want a fatigued doc working on me.

Everty profession has some sort of PFT. Unless you are on a scholarship.... You have to invest in your career earnings....

Yes, its called college and or, in our case, (flight school) once you have aquired the basic professional knowledge you get Hired.

You can't put the burden of PFT on each individual. If you want to effect positive change it must come from influence and power, not individuals... The problem is the senior doctors and pilots simply say.... "I had to do it.. so let the new guys feel the pain"

Sounds like you should be running for office, the individual is the power. One cant run around blaming everything on the system, just to justify ones own actions. By the way the senior Doctors say you must work your but off I did, so do the senior pilots. Neither of them say pay managment to work here.



What about ATP's? If i can go out an get my ATP and be more competitive am I a PFTer? Am I making it worse for others? The fact is there are plenty of routes to take in this country to get a jet job. PFT is making it any more difficult that minority hiring...

No, getting an ATP is training, it says your license is an Airline Transport Rating. And you are not paying your "employer" for it. You are paying a Flight School. There is a big difference.

In addition, we live in America. Not Europe. Everybody loves the free market system that provides the cheapest product/service available... but suddenly it shouldn't apply to airline industry? We are trained and conditioned to do things cheaper, better, faster... so why is this any different? If you can't compete in the US Economy then go to Europe or Commie China....

This has nothing to do with cheaper, faster, better, this has to do with working for free, or worse to the direct detriment of others.

Every pilot in this country should refuse to get a four year degree. Why do we need one? The FAA doesn't require it? Why should I have to waste four years and the cash to buy a degree?

Maybe, but you would still pay for flight School

 

[Nindiri]

If I had it to do over, I definitely would have PFT'ed back in the early nineties. I would have been several years ahead, had a few more years at the top of a major airline pay scale, and finished up my career with a couple hundred thousand more dollars in the bank. A 200K return on a 10K investment isn't too bad. :beer:

 

[onionluvr]

How does it feel to know you paid 10-15K for a regional job and they can't even get enough 250 hour wonders to fill the seats nowadays. Paid hotel rooms in training, signing bonuses, even notorious PFT pioneer Gulfstream is having to hire and train legitimate FO's. That's got to hurt. How does that decision seem now in hindsight? GIA guys who "flowed through" to Pinnacle? Colgan guys who spent 18K to fly the 1900? Comair dudes? MAPD pay-for-interview scheme? Where are all you guys? Was it worth it?

Yeah, you tell 'em slick! I just want you to know that you are now a better person for posting this thread. And, we are all better people for having read it.

You have now shown the PFTrs the light. It's such a shame that you weren't around to stop them when they wrote the check. If only I could experience, just for one second, what it is like to be a superior human being such as yourself.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

What about Doctors. They will go thru a tough training program including the 36+ hour shifts. How safe is that? Should they all band together and say no more? I don't want a fatigued ER doctor woking on me...

This discussion was not about safety, however I agree I also dont want a fatigued doc working on me.

The point was how a system is set up. You can't expect individuals to change a bonifide system unless the system morally corupt. This isn't a MLK jr or Ghandi paradigm.


Everty profession has some sort of PFT. Unless you are on a scholarship.... You have to invest in your career earnings....

Yes, its called college and or, in our case, (flight school) once you have aquired the basic professional knowledge you get Hired.

Not in the comeptive market place of America. This is not a free hand out. Jobs aren't an entitlement. PFTers are working at FedEx making bank. The losers are whining with debt.

If the next guy is willing to make a Masters degree the entry level standard then so be it.

Why should an individual reject PFT when it is a good move for him/her in this competitive captalistic economy?


You can't put the burden of PFT on each individual. If you want to effect positive change it must come from influence and power, not individuals... The problem is the senior doctors and pilots simply say.... "I had to do it.. so let the new guys feel the pain"

Sounds like you should be running for office, the individual is the power. One cant run around blaming everything on the system, just to justify ones own actions. By the way the senior Doctors say you must work your but off I did, so do the senior pilots. Neither of them say pay managment to work here.

PFT is a means to an end... if you don't like it then effect change...but you are dealing with the market place. It is more powerful than nature..? If not pretty damm close... you can't hold back the ocean.




What about ATP's? If i can go out an get my ATP and be more competitive am I a PFTer? Am I making it worse for others? The fact is there are plenty of routes to take in this country to get a jet job. PFT is making it any more difficult that minority hiring...

No, getting an ATP is training, it says your license is an Airline Transport Rating. And you are not paying your "employer" for it. You are paying a Flight School. There is a big difference.

The CRJ puppy farms are training too.


In addition, we live in America. Not Europe. Everybody loves the free market system that provides the cheapest product/service available... but suddenly it shouldn't apply to airline industry? We are trained and conditioned to do things cheaper, better, faster... so why is this any different? If you can't compete in the US Economy then go to Europe or Commie China....

This has nothing to do with cheaper, faster, better, this has to do with working for free, or worse to the direct detriment of others.

Who's going to pay for what in the competitive US market place. Supply and Demand.


Every pilot in this country should refuse to get a four year degree. Why do we need one? The FAA doesn't require it? Why should I have to waste four years and the cash to buy a degree?

Maybe, but you would still pay for flight School

And the sun will rise and the market place controls everything....

 

[siucavflight]

definetly

Love the post.

Wow the starter of this thread seems a little butt hurt. I did not PFT, but ill tell you this much if shelling out 7.5K would land me a job at SWA I would drop the coin in a second.

 

[Kaman]

<Yawn>

 

[handlesaregay]

I did not PFT, but ill tell you this much if shelling out 7.5K would land me a job at SWA I would drop the coin in a second.

I wouldn't. Getting something you'd otherwise be unqualified for because money exchanged hands is a bribe. Maybe instead of an interview Fed Ex should charge a 100K entry fee? How many of you would take out a second mortgage to buy a job at Fed Ex? It would be absolutely no different than paying 10K for a regional job. Would you whine that it's not fair if you couldn't afford it? Maybe starting this thread was dumb cause a scumbag will always find a way to justify their actions but I think the comments are very revealing. To you guys it's just a numbers game, professional ethics don't even factor into the equation because you don't have any. But I guess what was I expecting from a bunch of PFTers. It's pretty clear the tigers don't change their stripes even after all these years.

 

[Sgt. Hartman]

Keep crying and keep bitching there buddy.....maybe one day it will all work out for you and get you somewhere!

 

[siucavflight]

I wouldn't. Getting something you'd otherwise be unqualified for because money exchanged hands is a bribe. Maybe instead of an interview Fed Ex should charge a 100K entry fee? How many of you would take out a second mortgage to buy a job at Fed Ex? It would be absolutely no different than paying 10K for a regional job. Would you whine that it's not fair if you couldn't afford it? Maybe starting this thread was dumb cause a scumbag will always find a way to justify their actions but I think the comments are very revealing. To you guys it's just a numbers game, professional ethics don't even factor into the equation because you don't have any. But I gues even after all these years.

Dork. a 7.5K investment to make 200 Gs a year and have a fantastic QOL, live in base, and work for a stable company is well worth it. Dork.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

, professional ethics don't even

If you can reference a common agreed upon pilots professional ethics document AND show how PFT is in violation then you might have a point..... I seriously don't think you can, but if you could and had a good arguement, I'll agree with you.

The fact is you guys are really worrying about something you cannot control. Like minority hiring, like the RLA, etc.....

Until you realize what you can influence and cannot control, it doesn't matter how right you believe you are....

 

[M-16A2]

seems to me the only people that didnt pay for training are former military folks. the rest of us paid for our flight training at some school or FBO. I guess he is trying to feel better about his decision over dropping 100K at riddle. I didnt pft for right seat time but i did drop 50K for a diploma and my ratings

 

[Princedietrich]

How does it feel to know you paid 10-15K for a regional job and they can't even get enough 250 hour wonders to fill the seats nowadays. Paid hotel rooms in training, signing bonuses, even notorious PFT pioneer Gulfstream is having to hire and train legitimate FO's. That's got to hurt. How does that decision seem now in hindsight? GIA guys who "flowed through" to Pinnacle? Colgan guys who spent 18K to fly the 1900? Comair dudes? MAPD pay-for-interview scheme? Where are all you guys? Was it worth it?

With a username like that, do you honestly expect to be taken seriously around here? Go play with your Xbox.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

seems to me the only people that didnt pay for training are former military folks. the rest of us paid for our flight training at some school or FBO. I guess he is trying to feel better about his decision over dropping 100K at riddle. I didnt pft for right seat time but i did drop 50K for a diploma and my ratings

Everybody has to pay in one way or another. Be it money, sacrifices with family, or giving up your life for 10 years to the military (with the possibility to lose your life). Look at the biggest example of how money has helped somebody in life. GEORGE W BUSH. That guy had everything handed to him his whole life and now he is president. Sounds like PFT to me. Dad got him into the military not on his merits, college also not on his merits, CEO of sports teams, Oil companies, ETC. ETC.

 

[time builder]

seems to me the only people that didnt pay for training are former military folks. the rest of us paid for our flight training at some school or FBO. I guess he is trying to feel better about his decision over dropping 100K at riddle. I didnt pft for right seat time but i did drop 50K for a diploma and my ratings

I've posted the same thing before, no one wants to admit they've PFT'd. As long as they've met the status quo of not paying an actual airline for training they feel good about themselves. The truth is that we all (again military excluded) had to pay for training until someone thought we were worthy of a job.

Really, though, if you're still bitter about the PFT issue, get with the times, you're not shorted any opportunities because someone bought a 250 hour block in a BE-1900. Qualifications are qualifications, and a Gulfstream/Cargo FO has to prove to the interviewer that they have more on-the-job experience than what they got from the program.

In many cases, companies will hold it against someone for being in such a program (assuming they were in the program because they didn't have the skills to get a job otherwise). The applicant again has to prove to the interviewer that there's more to them than the stereotype.

We all know the underlying principle is that we don't want people "buying jobs" and excluding more qualified people, but really, if you think that's the case with FO programs in the last few years, get over it, they have to be just as qualified as you do to get a job.

 

[Jungle_Jet]

Last time I checked, these "PFT'ers" as someone referred to them still had to pass the same training stands and check rides as anyone else. That money, as overpriced as we might think it is, doesn't actually "buy" the job, you still have to have the skills at the end of the day.

Plus, who is this thread directed to? I'm guessing you are aiming it at GIA'ers, but you are leaving out nearly everyone who entered the industry from the mid-80's to late 90's, as every regional I know was PFT. DOH!

 

[152SIC]

Who cares!

PFT is a business decision! Sure we'd love not to do it, but it doesn't degrade the profession. What degrades the profession is apathy once you get there.

There are plenty of guys, who can blame them, that believed when they got an airline job that you show, fly, and go home... they don't even realize that someone is minding the store of the profession.

PFT is before the job... the question is...what are you doing after you get the job to make it better.... If anyone is going to slam PFT then look in the mirror and start making this profession better than you found it!

If PFT doesn't or didn't degrade the profession then it at least shows that qualified pilots are not worth being treated as professionals.

Even without PFT, the regionals have continued to show that as a group, we are not qualified to be considered professionals.

After interviewing at a regional 11 years ago, and being told the starting pay I laughed and left. I never did go to work for a regional. Who can afford to?

 

[1flier]

SWA and PFT are apples and oranges

I wouldn't. Getting something you'd otherwise be unqualified for because money exchanged hands is a bribe. Maybe instead of an interview Fed Ex should charge a 100K entry fee? How many of you would take out a second mortgage to buy a job at Fed Ex? It would be absolutely no different than paying 10K for a regional job. Would you whine that it's not fair if you couldn't afford it? Maybe starting this thread was dumb cause a scumbag will always find a way to justify their actions but I think the comments are very revealing. To you guys it's just a numbers game, professional ethics don't even factor into the equation because you don't have any. But I guess what was I expecting from a bunch of PFTers. It's pretty clear the tigers don't change their stripes even after all these years.

Hey PFT sucks, we all don't agree with it. Heck I am a street captain at a GIA and was wondering why all of these F/O's dropped 30K with all the other regionals hiring with a cmel and a pulse. All responded with they didnt do enough research and that they felt the guarentee of 250 hours was better than risking washing out of someone else's training. Everyone is entitled to making a mistake but there is no reason to dog them for the rest of their career about it. They did what they felt they had to do in order to try to get some return of the money already invested in flight training. Like the earlier post said, I can remember in 2001 and 2002 when the majority of regionals charged something just to interview let alone train and they still wanted 1500/500 which to ask today would be a joke when you have legacy carriers accepting resumes at the same times. As far as SWA asking for you to have a 737 type to work for them, thats just company hiring mins. How many corporate or 135 gigs want you to have the type already to meet insurance? Plus, dropping 5-6K to make 50K plus your 1st year and near 100K your 3rd is a worthwhile investment for something that you keep for the rest of your career that is worth something. Of course you get paid during training. GIA F/O's drop 30K for company required indoc training and sim training and recieve no pay during 3 months of training for $8 an hour the first 250 hours then 18 an hour after for a avg 17K a year and they get a B1900 SIC type out of the deal. That is PFT, that is buying your job. Fractionals like Netjets and Citationshares require an ATP to apply, does that make them PFT since you have to get your ATP if you dont already have it?

 

[FR8mastr]

Fractionals like Netjets and Citationshares require an ATP to apply, does that make them PFT since you have to get your ATP if you dont already have it?

No it does not make it PFT. The easy way to tell if you are buying your job is. Who are you writing the check to? If it is your "Employer", than you are buying a job.

These pilots can claim "its not my fault, its the system" until the cows come home. Bottom line, they have whored themselves out, because they feel they shouldnt have to work up to the job, and most importantly dont give a rats behind who they hurt on the way, as long as they get theirs. The ironic part is they are screwing themselves as well in the process, because of the downward pressure that their actions have put on the industry.

 

[enigma]

No it does not make it PFT. The easy way to tell if you are buying your job is. Who are you writing the check to? If it is your "Employer", than you are buying a job.

These pilots can claim "its not my fault, its the system" until the cows come home. Bottom line, they have whored themselves out, because they feel they shouldnt have to work up to the job, and most importantly dont give a rats behind who they hurt on the way, as long as they get theirs. The ironic part is they are screwing themselves as well in the process, because of the downward pressure that their actions have put on the industry.

Right on man.
For every BuyAJob-er (aka PFT'r) who "made it to the big time" .............I hate to tell you, but the "big time" isn't as big any more. You, by showing management that you would bring your own vaseline, devalued yourself and all of the rest of us.

I guess that you think you've won because you now get to sit right seat in a 737, etc. I hate to tell you that you could have achieved the same position but at more money had you not trained management to pay you less.

The very fact that you all feel the need to justify your actions is very telling.