Here we go again- DAL

[B6Guy]

Lets see what happens

You know the much talked about 5 year contract?? I remember that contract being revised in late 2001 to include a ~30% raise for A320 captains. From [~$85 to $110/hr] So much for being 'stuck' with 'only' a 5 year contract.

I'm sure we will see the same thing with the E190 pay after a year or so. I have faith in our management.

There are a LOT of guys planning on bidding the E190 for a pay upgrade instead of waiting for Airbus upgrade [2+ years right now], a nice $20+ /hr raise while their seniority with the company gets closer to holding an A320 captain upgrade. I think it is a sound plan. I would have liked to have seen a higher pay rate for the E190, but I trust our management to do the right thing. Kool-Aid?? maybe, but history tells the tale.

As for Kool-Aid, General: can you deny that there is a tall cool glass of Lime-Green Kool-Aid next to your keyboard?? Come on, honestly now isn't it there??

We all like to be proud of where we work, and General, I applaud your pride in Delta, especially in the face of the current dismal financials.

I'm proud to work at a company that is hiring, growing, and making money. So what's wrong with that?? MUCH better than a company on the decline, with huge paycuts, workforce shrinking, and a grumpy, defensive and depressed atmosphere. [Shudder] I wouldn't want to work in that environment!

 

[8vATE]

Here we go again...

Mr. Know it ALL General LEE...

this is one of your quotes..

"the problem I have is that JB management does set the bar, and every other management is applauding. The current JB pilots have little or no say, and that is THEIR FAULT. They love that blue kool-aid, and they don't see the problem because they are in expansion mode and upgrades are fast and furious, and they won't have to fly the E190s. "

This is the thing I have such heartburn about you G Lee..

Blame your competition for your problems... Blame the competition for the industry's problems...

And Heavy Set..
You're on the same wagon...

The last I heard.. we live in a country that is based on capitalism...
Free markets....
Supply and demand regulates the markets...

Sure... I'd love to time travel back to the 50s/60s/pre deregulation 70s..
Free love... noisy jets that go fast and lots of FEMALE stews..

But you guys need to wake up...

Gen Lee..

your true DELTA colors are starting to run...
SINCE WHEN DO YOU .. A DELTA PILOT CARE ABOUT ANYONE BUT YOURSELF?

How about the way you guys have treated your "brothers" at Comair, ASA and Skywest? Your Delta Connection Family... ASA and Comair are even ALPA "brothers"...

You guys got greedy with the 777 pay rates sideletter... the UAL boys and girls saw that and got theirs with their contract... and then you guys signed off on your "bar setting" contract..

Great for you guys... except nothing is for sure in this industry...
You guys couldn't afford it.....the downward slide started before 9/11.... then it accelerated... and now all I hear is your crying about JetBlue pilots..

Well wake up man..

I'm not anti-union... I was ALPA for 15 years...
SWA is inhouse... we may go that way someday..

Our leadership is devoting a LOT of time to educate our summer newhires about what they will expect as an income stream..
I made 36k first year at USAirways..
Mid 80s second year..

It will be more for the first year for a jb newhire on the 190..
Somewhat less to about the same the second year after upgrading...

Yes.. things have changed..

AND YOU MY FRIEND.... you are going to have more changes in your future...
don't hold your breath on your friends in congress helping the pension problems.
why don't you spend some of your energy looking inside at your company's and your personal situation than outside to blaming your competitors...

So get off your high horse... your thinly veiled arrogance still shines bright through on your comments..

Heavy Set...

you too my friend need to open your eyes...

this is a free market...
pay rates for 100 seaters HAVE changed... so have A320 rates...

You are a perfect example of a PILOT who thinks he is MANAGEMENT...

It is management's responsibility to lead, plan and manage the business..
PILOTs are LABOR.... we are supposed to do our jobs.... we can choose to negotiate with management about work rules/compensation.... or we can choose not too.... The history of collective bargaining under the railway/labor act is abhorrent... the history of airline management and how they treat labor has been horrible.... that is a topic for another discussion... there is a huge
trust and communication problem between labor and mgt

But don't forget for a moment that you are labor.... not management...


Lee..

I'm sure everyone is still impressed with your Germania info on the F100s..
Short haul intraEurope is so similiar to the US marketplace...

Have you seen a lot of Saab 2000s or BAE ATPs buzzing around the US too with all the US F100s here?

wow!!!
You so smart! You so bigg!
oh... I forgot ... you never even flew a F100.

 

[jbucpt]

another wise thought by general lee: "Without a union or a speaking voice (since there are 5 year contracts) the pilots of Jetblue pretty much gave away all pay rates for 100 seat aircraft"....

general; it will be interesting to watch YOUR union speak up for YOU when they give away YOUR retirement, YOUR seniority number,YOUR beloved work rules, etc, in the upcoming months.......lets see what bar DALPA sets next.

oh, thats right, YOUR CEO says your "on track" with its business plans, therefore, DALPA and YOU have nothing to worry about??!!

 

[On Your Six]

another wise thought by general lee: "Without a union or a speaking voice (since there are 5 year contracts) the pilots of Jetblue pretty much gave away all pay rates for 100 seat aircraft"....

general; it will be interesting to watch YOUR union speak up for YOU when they give away YOUR retirement, YOUR seniority number,YOUR beloved work rules, etc, in the upcoming months.......lets see what bar DALPA sets next.

oh, thats right, YOUR CEO says your "on track" with its business plans, therefore, DALPA and YOU have nothing to worry about??!!

Say what you want, but JetBlue's management unilaterally set the bar for 100-seat rates. I agree with Heavy Set and others who say that this will place a cap on regional wages (how can a 50-70 seat pilot expect to be paid more?) and further depress the non-regional wage rates in this low-cost environment. The race to the bottom continues...

 

[jbucpt]

Say what you want, but JetBlue's management unilaterally set the bar for 100-seat rates. I agree with Heavy Set and others who say that this will place a cap on regional wages (how can a 50-70 seat pilot expect to be paid more?) and further depress the non-regional wage rates in this low-cost environment. The race to the bottom continues...

maybe jetblue management unilaterally set the bar on 100 seat rates, however, WHO set the bar for the NEW airbus rates at US AIRWAYS and UNITED?? was it ALPA or their management?????

 

[skykid]

maybe jetblue management unilaterally set the bar on 100 seat rates, however, WHO set the bar for the NEW airbus rates at US AIRWAYS and UNITED?? was it ALPA or their management?????

What forces do you think the legacies are responding to? When Delta has to cut its pensions, will your company be forced to do the same? No, Delta is responding to what has been forced on them by the new model, which includes employees willing to work for less pay and retirement benefits. For you to point a finger at the legacies for "bringing the bar down" is a joke. You guys need to get off the blame game - it is what is, but at least see your part in it.

 

[jbucpt]

What forces do you think the legacies are responding to? When Delta has to cut its pensions, will your company be forced to do the same? No, Delta is responding to what has been forced on them by the new model, which includes employees willing to work for less pay and retirement benefits. For you to point a finger at the legacies for "bringing the bar down" is a joke. You guys need to get off the blame game - it is what is, but at least see your part in it.

it was ALPA who "wanted to choke the legacy carriers by neck until it gives them every last egg it had"..... and look where it got them??!! (if you believe we are to blame, then you are either naive or drinking too much of ALPA'S COOLAID) dont blame jetblue, southwest, etc. for ALPA's and their management's incompetence and fallacies..

 

[B6Guy]

Blame Game?

The LCC's have about 30% of the Domestic market, at least that is what I've read here. So with 70% of the market if the Legacies wanted to keep their pricing and pensions and payrates, then why do they try to match and undercut the LCCs ?? Because the Legacies with their arrogance were sure that they could put the LCCs out of business by increasing capacity and matching or lowering prices. It obviously isn't happening.

If the Legacy carriers would just tend to their business, shrink some, but RAISE prices to at least breaking even then they would survive. The LCCs are here to stay. SWA has been around what three decades? Air Tran about ten years? JB and Sprit 5+.

With 70% of the market I don't see how the nearly full LCCs can be to blame for the industry woes, it is the arrogant Legacies who believe that they can put the new business model out of business that have continually driven down prices, pensions and pay rates. We'd all be much better off if prices went up.

Just raise prices, the buying public will have to pay the rate, since the LCC's cabins are full anyway, where else are the seats available??

With higher revenues, then JB can raise pay rates in both the E190 and the A320 to make all the ALPA Cool-aid drinkers happy. We're not lowering the bar, the current pricing structure and foolish competition is lowering the revenue so low that JB was forced to come in with a low pay rate for the E190 so that we had room to go and grow.

Just the way I see it.

 

[8vATE]

New caring DAL mgt...according to Lee..

The restructuring will result in the elimination of 1,600 to 2,000 Delta jobs in technical ops, according to the Associated Press.


well..

2000 of your mechanics have just felt the new touch of a caring DAL management..


The pilots will be forced to pony up again...
And it will include pensions at some point..


Either your business plan is super efficient, productive and has a clear vision...
such as SWA....

Or you fail...

That's what everyone should be realizing...

It is my opinion that Song will be DAL domestic... and much smaller than current domestic..
DAL international will grow....

 

[MedFlyer]

The LCC's have about 30% of the Domestic market, at least that is what I've read here. So with 70% of the market if the Legacies wanted to keep their pricing and pensions and payrates, then why do they try to match and undercut the LCCs ?? Because the Legacies with their arrogance were sure that they could put the LCCs out of business by increasing capacity and matching or lowering prices. It obviously isn't happening.

Not totally true. While LCC's only account for 30% of the market, you primarily fly only the highest volume, largest revenue routes...aka cherry-picking. Sure DL doesn't have competition on routes like ATL-AVL or CVG-BGM, but those routes aren't DL's primary bread and butter. DL makes far more money from primary trunk routes like ATL-LGA or JFK-FLL. However, these are the routes where the LCC's like to play.

Could DL just ignore the LCC's and price higher? Not really. Instead of matching B6's $99 o/w JFK-SAN fare, let's say DL charges $149. The extra $50 should cover some of DL's extra costs, but how many customers would still pay the extra $50. Some might, but DL would lose a ton of customers which would cancel out any benefit gained from raising fares.

You say your planes are full and you couldn't accomodate all these passengers. I say baloney. How many planes does JetBlue have on order? How many planes does WN have on order? The majors might get a temporary bump, but over time the LCC's would flood the market with capacity.

The reason your payrates on the E190's are low is because you have a high-volume, low-yield business model. Look at your breakeven LF....it was 82%. With a BELF that high, your management has to pay you crap on the E190s. For comparison, WN's breakeven LF was about 63%.

You guys own most of the routes out of JFK and could set the prices however you like. In fact, both DL and AA have been retreating from many of your routes. AA dumped JFK-SJC, JFK-LGB and JFK-PHX, while DL is dumping/dumped JFK-SAN, JFK-DEN, JFK-PHX and reducing JFK-LAS.

 

[skykid]

if you believe we are to blame, then you are either naive or drinking too much of ALPA'S COOLAID

No, I'm no fan of ALPA, and I'm not blaming anybody. However, I can make an observation that the airlines growing seats in double digit numbers generally have one type of aircraft, only fly domestic, and have relatively young work forces who are less compensated then what the legacies USED to be. That's the way it is. Delta, along with NW, UAL, CAL, and AMR are adjusting to be competitive because none are going to survive without a strong domestic presence. Delta pilots are having to match your pay and benefits, why are you offended by that fact? By spending so much time pointing fingers, we fail to see what is ahead, like the lower wages/benefit trend is just getting started. Trouble is, the legacies are never going to be as streamlined because of the complexity of international ops, among other things. But I'm hoping at least some of the big boys make it. There is a scenario where for the most part all we have left is LCC domestic only carriers, and most of the international flights are handled by foriegn airlines. I don't want to see that.

Just raise prices, the buying public will have to pay the rate, since the LCC's cabins are full anyway, where else are the seats available??

I'm not sure if you are joking or not, so you might have got me. If anything can be learned by the events of the past several years, it's that the LCCs have the domestic pricing power. Where the legacies can't raise or have pulled back price increases, it's because they were going to lose money by raising prices. Also, you haven't researched the load factors on the LCCs.

 

[B6Guy]

Load factors

Skykid and Medflyer, I have to admit, I was shooting from the hip on that post. I am looking only at what I've been experiencing. My JB flights are 95% of the time full of paying customers and a few non revs on the four available jump seats.

Also on my commute I've been very thankful for CASS lately since the Legacy carriers are full a lot of the time. So maybe I should have done some more reasearch on other LCC load factors. But to be honest I wasn't kidding.

I do believe that if with the example given that DAL raise prices to $149 for JFK-SAN compared to our $99. First, DAL should [I would hope] make some money and hopefully hold off bankruptcy. And I believe that the LCC carriers would raise prices as well while not to the same $149, but maybe by $20-30. We ALL need some relief from the current fuel prices.

Now do JB and WN have a lot of planes on order? yes, but ours come at a measured pace, matching training and hiring rates. Most current routes are doing well, so are we able to suddenly add 30% more capacity on a route to carry the passengers who don't want to pay the higher Legacy rates?? I don't think so. My idea is undoubtably simplistic, but if it was implemented I think some short term income could be realized for everyone concerned.

I do believe that there is a market for what the Legacies offer, and to try to compete with the LCCs is suicide. Why not do what you do well? Business class, first class and international. Again maybe [probably] I'm way too simplistic on this.

I'd just like to start hearing some good news from the legacies, I have lots of friends there, and I feel for them.

We're making money at JB, and I believe will continue to do so. I do believe that there is room for pricing to move up for all carriers and stop the self-inflicted bleeding. JB didn't drop our prices to try to shut down the Legacies. We had much higher prices [compared to now] untill the legacies added capacity and chopped prices, or opened new routes to match ours in an attempt to shut us down. So we cut prices and continued to make money at a lower rate while the Legacies are bleeding from self-inflicted wounds.

Flame away if you wish, I learn from everyone.

 

[N2264J]

It is my opinion that Song will be DAL domestic... and much smaller than current domestic...

The next time you're riding in a Delta Inc. aircraft, look in the back of the onboard SKY magazine at the route maps. DCI is already Delta domestic.

 

[General Lee]

The next time you're riding in a Delta Inc. aircraft, look in the back of the onboard SKY magazine at the route maps. DCI is already Delta domestic.

hence the decline in profits.......Thanks Fred Greed. Business people don't like RJs N2264J-----they would rather fly on larger airlplanes, like LCC mainline sized aircraft.


Bye Bye--General Lee