Here we go again- DAL

[dtfl]

Eventually, he wants to trim the number to two: a widebody and a narrowbody. "Delta could manage all of its flying with two aircraft types," he said. " That's the direction we have to head, but it's going to take us quite a while to get there." -By Elizabeth Souder, Dow Jones Newswires; 201-938-4148; elizabeth.souder@ dowjones.com From what I have heard and read, those narrowbodies will probably be in the 737 family (700,800,900) and the widebody would be the 787 or 777. (as said on Dalpa forum....from whom I don't remember) I guess Song would have 739's?

uh oh - General that makes me think about what they will next do to the payscale - let's see - Narrowbody pay and Widebody pay? New pay rates? Another chance to cut costs? Just my still-furloughed pessism kicking in as I repaint my bathroom. Thanks Hurricane Ivan - I am almost done with things.

 

[Dizel8]

Don't worry, he'll be back. Ivan I mean

 

[dtfl]

Thanks..

Don't worry, he'll be back. Ivan I mean

Thanks - that was a real nice thought. Do you tell your wife she's fat too?

 

[Dizel8]

I was teasing, but If I upset you, I apologize.

P.S. She left maybe you have a point

 

[doh]

Never confuse duty to do right by shareholders with management. They always do what is right for themselves first.

 

[michael707767]

uh oh - General that makes me think about what they will next do to the payscale - let's see - Narrowbody pay and Widebody pay? New pay rates? Another chance to cut costs? Just my still-furloughed pessism kicking in as I repaint my bathroom. Thanks Hurricane Ivan - I am almost done with things.

if all we have is a narrowbody and a widebody, whats wrong with that kind of pay?

 

[8vATE]

No I am not.

So glad you are happy for me.

Reap what we sow? We raised the bar, unlike Jetblue and the 100 seat rates

Reality? We have learned from this, and we now have solid management that will help us get out of this. They have a plan, and you and I aren't privy to it.

I don't blame you for our plight. I can see, though, that you blame us for your unhappiness. That really is sad. Jealousy $ucks for you. We will be fine in the end.


Bye Bye--General Lee

THANKS for raising the bar...!!
And keep raising it... right to CH 11..

Keep wishing for gov't handouts and intervention..


Face reality Lee..

Your business model is garbage..

You guys will continue to shrink domestically..
Delta domestically will end up being SONG....
But probably about half the size you guys are now...

 

[8vATE]

No, I was waiting for you to post on the Majors. I wasn't dissappointed. That's fine, everyone has an opinion and I respect that. Post away. I have never posted anything bad about the pilots themselves (unlike that jerk 8vate), but I too will post news.


Bye Bye--General Lee

I think someone else touched a nerve...


LEE...

it is soooo great you guys NOW have management that cares!!!

Keep raising the bar and defending the profession!!

 

[General Lee]

I think someone else touched a nerve...


LEE...

it is soooo great you guys NOW have management that cares!!!

Keep raising the bar and defending the profession!!

Ah, I struck a nerve with the Fokker response. Good. Well, we did raise the bar, and everyone does acknowledge that. Three years. Then, you guys and your management agreed on a 100 seat rate that changed everything, while you sit on the bus not caring. "Ah, those guys that get hired won't mind, they'll be at JETBLUE!" At the same time, your 100 seat rates are so low that any new 50 seat rates for every regional out there will be compared to it--lowering their bar. Hey, if you feel good about that, well, that's fine.

As far as our current management, they do seem to have a plan and that is more than what our last management had, and they are following through. We expect a bumpy road, but we seem to have people who do care, because they aren't tied to bonuses anymore, and that is a fact. They have been allocated some stock options, which is better because the better we do, the better they do, and that is how it should be. (We also got stock options)


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Heavy Set]

I think someone else touched a nerve...


LEE...

it is soooo great you guys NOW have management that cares!!!

Keep raising the bar and defending the profession!!

You sound like an A$$. It's true that Delta pilots were maintaining the bar for as long as they could while other airlines (and implicitly their pilots) were placing considerable downward pressure on the bar. Perhaps you still don't see how the JetBlue E190 rates have sent schock waves through the profession hurting wages above and below - at both majors and regionals. But you guys were powerless to do anything... At least acknowledge that the new E190 rates have screwed the rest of the industry... Can you deny that?

 

[Bellerophon]

At the same time, your 100 seat rates are so low that any new 50 seat rates for every regional out there will be compared to it--lowering their bar. Hey, if you feel good about that, well, that's fine.

I have to respectfully disagree with you on that point. The JB 190 pilots are on the same senority list. What widebody pay would a pilot group be willing to sacrifice to bring a 100 seat aircraft on their senority list? I believe there are different dynamics involved in the Regional airline group negotiating a 50 seat (perhaps their largest) than a Major airline group negotiating their smallest seat aircraft rate.

So from an AirTran pilot for example you would be right (I think the 717 is around 100 seat aircraft). However from a Delta,ASA,Comair,ect... viewpoint the 50 seat aircraft are not on the mainline carrier senority list. The vast majority of Major airline pilot groups have not included 50-90 seat aircraft and pilots on their list. Scope costs money and I will take scope over pay any day (until I am a senior widebody captain lol). You must look at the whole package, not just pay rates. The best package is always with the mainline carrier (medical retirement, ect..).

Remember the Delta bar was raised in large part by relief on scope (I am in no way marginalizing effort and unity of the Delta pilot group during the last contract negotiations).

 

[Heavy Set]

At the same time, your 100 seat rates are so low that any new 50 seat rates for every regional out there will be compared to it--lowering their bar. Hey, if you feel good about that, well, that's fine.

I have to respectfully disagree with you on that point. The JB 190 pilots are on the same senority list. What widebody pay would a pilot group be willing to sacrifice to bring a 100 seat aircraft on their senority list? I believe there are different dynamics involved in the Regional airline group negotiating a 50 seat (perhaps their largest) than a Major airline group negotiating their smallest seat aircraft rate.

So from an AirTran pilot for example you would be right (I think the 717 is around 100 seat aircraft). However from a Delta,ASA,Comair,ect... viewpoint the 50 seat aircraft are not on the mainline carrier senority list. The vast majority of Major airline pilot groups have not included 50-90 seat aircraft and pilots on their list. Scope costs money and I will take scope over pay any day (until I am a senior widebody captain lol). You must look at the whole package, not just pay rates. The best package is always with the mainline carrier (medical retirement, ect..).

Remember the Delta bar was raised in large part by relief on scope (I am in no way marginalizing effort and unity of the Delta pilot group during the last contract negotiations).

How can, for example, a Comair or ASA CRJ200 or CRJ700 Captain now expect to maintain a salary close to or exceeding $90K+ when the Captain of a JetBlue E190 (with 30-50 more seats) is making a lot less? Who cares whether the airline is a major, a LCC or a regional - we are talking about seat numbers and the impact on pilot salaries and their negotiating position in this low-cost environment. JetBlue has effectively capped the earning potential of hard-working regional pilots who have been able to negotiate good salaries for these aircraft types over the years.

So, here goes the scenario: management at ASA or Comair or COEX or Mesaba approaches the pilots (perhaps during normal contract negotiations) and says, "You are demanding salaries that are no longer competitive in this LCC environment. Just look at what JetBlue is paying its 100-seat Captains - a lot less. And yet you are flying an airplane with 30-50 fewer seats. Don't expect salaries that are now non-competitive." JetBlue's management took advantage of the lack of a pilot union at JetBlue to torpedo wage expectations in the industry going forward - it's a fact... JetBlue has low costs and can charge customers less, in part, because its pilots (and other employees) are unable to do anything about their wage structure and the impact on the industry in general.

These wages will impact pilots at the majors (again, because JetBlue's wages can be used in comparison to reduce wages) and at the regionals - JetBlue operates larger aircraft at lower wages thus making "high" wages at regionals non-competitive in this low-cost market... Am I wrong? Thanks JetBlue management for kicking us all in the a$$ and reducing wage-earning potential for everyone...

 

[General Lee]

At the same time, your 100 seat rates are so low that any new 50 seat rates for every regional out there will be compared to it--lowering their bar. Hey, if you feel good about that, well, that's fine.

I have to respectfully disagree with you on that point. The JB 190 pilots are on the same senority list. What widebody pay would a pilot group be willing to sacrifice to bring a 100 seat aircraft on their senority list? I believe there are different dynamics involved in the Regional airline group negotiating a 50 seat (perhaps their largest) than a Major airline group negotiating their smallest seat aircraft rate.

So from an AirTran pilot for example you would be right (I think the 717 is around 100 seat aircraft). However from a Delta,ASA,Comair,ect... viewpoint the 50 seat aircraft are not on the mainline carrier senority list. The vast majority of Major airline pilot groups have not included 50-90 seat aircraft and pilots on their list. Scope costs money and I will take scope over pay any day (until I am a senior widebody captain lol). You must look at the whole package, not just pay rates. The best package is always with the mainline carrier (medical retirement, ect..).

Remember the Delta bar was raised in large part by relief on scope (I am in no way marginalizing effort and unity of the Delta pilot group during the last contract negotiations).

I also respectfully disagree with you. Without a union or a speaking voice (since there are 5 year contracts) the pilots of Jetblue pretty much gave away all pay rates for 100 seat aircraft. They couldn't say anything bad about it if they wanted to. The Jetblue management saw a great opportunity to give the lowest 100 seat rates around---a 12 year Captain will make $89 an hour with today's rates. Will that change? Nobody knows. A 12 year Captain at Comair makes more than that on the CR7, and thanks to those new rates----his pay will go down to stay competitive. The Jetblue 100 seat pay scale in now the 100 seat Benchmark, and anything smaller will get paid less from now on. The problem is that the pilots could not say anything, and most current Jetblue pilots don't care much obviously because they are or will be upgrading on the bus, at a higher pay scale anyway. If they had a union, would those rates be that low? Probably not, but then again the kool-aid tastes better without a union. Has Jetblue threatened scope issues to their pilots? I don't think so.

Yes, we fell down in pay after the Chap 11 threat, but that was expected since a judge could have done the same. It's just not the same.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Bellerophon]

How can, for example, a Comair or ASA CRJ200 or CRJ700 Captain now expect to maintain a salary close to or exceeding $90K+ when the Captain of a JetBlue E190 (with 30-50 more seats) is making a lot less?

I would not count on a non-union airline to raise the bar, they follow. Holding or raising the bar is not easy, but hang in there and this cycle will turn. I do not look to other pilot groups to raise my bar (thats just me).

So, here goes the scenario: management at ASA or Comair or COEX or Mesaba approaches the pilots (perhaps during normal contract negotiations) and says, "You are demanding salaries that are no longer competitive in this LCC environment. Just look at what JetBlue is paying its 100-seat Captains - a lot less.

But again a JB 190 pilot gets senority with mainline, that is worth something (eventhough it is an LCC). You are negotiating rate on your largest equipment, which I believe is different than negotiating your smallest equipment. (point of my first post) Just ask them how many airbus aircraft they are going to give you-lol.

[/QUOTE=General]The Jetblue 100 seat pay scale in now the 100 seat Benchmark, and anything smaller will get paid less from now on.

What percentage of total US RJ fleet will JB have? Will their fleet be that big that it sets the benchmark or the low end? If the JB rates become the benchmark why are we paying union dues.

So bottom line I do agree with the both of you the JB 190 rates do not help the RJ pilots nation wide. However, I would not count on JB management to raise the bar. I still stand by the point of my first post that a JB pilot gets a senority number with the mainline carrier (after restrictions). A regional pilot does not, I am sure your negotiating committee is holding that card.

I hope I did not take your comments out of context.

 

[General Lee]

I understand where you are coming from, but the problem I have is that JB management does set the bar, and every other management is applauding. The current JB pilots have little or no say, and that is THEIR FAULT. They love that blue kool-aid, and they don't see the problem because they are in expansion mode and upgrades are fast and furious, and they won't have to fly the E190s. That is the problem, they are in a haze and won't have to ever set foot on the 100 seater, while their management is currently high fiving each other.



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[doh]

So using the logic of this thread all the Comair folks need to do is insist that to come down to the JB 100 seat rate we get to move on to bigger aircraft? Wtfo, we tried that and it didn't work. That koolaid is pretty blue boys, got anything else to quench my thirst?

 

[IB6 UB9]

I understand where you are coming from, but the problem I have is that JB management does set the bar, and every other management is applauding. The current JB pilots have little or no say, and that is THEIR FAULT. They love that blue kool-aid, and they don't see the problem because they are in expansion mode and upgrades are fast and furious, and they won't have to fly the E190s. That is the problem, they are in a haze and won't have to ever set foot on the 100 seater, while their management is currently high fiving each other.



Bye Bye--General Lee

Sure hazy here. Can you explain to me how much say you had when you took your pay cuts. What is your logical explanation for "raising the bar", as you arrogantly put it, for three years right up until your company almost files for Ch. 11? Will you sit on the porch someday with your grandchildren on your knee telling stories? "Yep...we deltoids raised the bar back then...just about cost us the company, sent a large amount of our pilot force to the street...but we sure raised it (chest all puffed out). Our company was getting killed, losing gallons of cash...a paper loss of course...but we held firm until it was painfully obvious that Ch. 11 was only days away...and the courts would have ordered a paycut anyway. Your grandaddy was a double-breasted deltoid hero...come on...inside to the old tickle trunk to try on my uniform again." We could seek representation then attempt to "raise" it too. Many of us have already come from a bankrupt carrier, and I think we are going to try something a little different than just go shooting our six guns and "raise the bar" over here. The airplane hasn't even turned a wheel. I just don't understand your logic. What I do see is a tremendous amount of fanatical arrogance...and utter stupidity in some of your statements. Maybe that's just me. Carry on.

 

[General Lee]

Sure hazy here. Can you explain to me how much say you had when you took your pay cuts. What is your logical explanation for "raising the bar", as you arrogantly put it, for three years right up until your company almost files for Ch. 11? Will you sit on the porch someday with your grandchildren on your knee telling stories? "Yep...we deltoids raised the bar back then...just about cost us the company, sent a large amount of our pilot force to the street...but we sure raised it (chest all puffed out). Our company was getting killed, losing gallons of cash...a paper loss of course...but we held firm until it was painfully obvious that Ch. 11 was only days away...and the courts would have ordered a paycut anyway. Your grandaddy was a double-breasted deltoid hero...come on...inside to the old tickle trunk to try on my uniform again." We could seek representation then attempt to "raise" it too. Many of us have already come from a bankrupt carrier, and I think we are going to try something a little different than just go shooting our six guns and "raise the bar" over here. The airplane hasn't even turned a wheel. I just don't understand your logic. What I do see is a tremendous amount of fanatical arrogance...and utter stupidity in some of your statements. Maybe that's just me. Carry on.

So, you agree with management that it was all labors fault, right? You believe that? What about the stock buy back pre-911 for $2 billion that evaporated? What about the Comair strike that cost $1 billion? What about the selling of the fuel hedges? How about waiting for USAir to die when it never did? This was all our fault? I guess we never did offer any voluntary pay cuts, right? Wrong. They just wanted more. I remember telling them to park a lot of mainline jets and throw RJs on the routes to persuade passengers to try your airline. I remember telling them that.... Come on---you really do drink the blue kool-aid----No, wait, you guzzle it. You NEED it, you are sooo thirsty. Think about it before you comment next time, and make sure you ask Dave Neeleman first to see how he would respond---he might be too busy laughing about your new E190 rates!


Bye Bye--General Lee(you hate it when I am right...)

 

[IB6 UB9]

So, you agree with management that it was all labors fault, right? You believe that? What about the stock buy back pre-911 for $2 billion that evaporated? What about the Comair strike that cost $1 billion? What about the selling of the fuel hedges? How about waiting for USAir to die when it never did? This was all our fault? I guess we never did offer any voluntary pay cuts, right? Wrong. They just wanted more. I remember telling them to park a lot of mainline jets and throw RJs on the routes to persuade passengers to try your airline. I remember telling them that.... Come on---you really do drink the blue kool-aid----No, wait, you guzzle it. You NEED it, you are sooo thirsty. Think about it before you comment next time, and make sure you ask Dave Neeleman first to see how he would respond---he might be too busy laughing about your new E190 rates!


Bye Bye--General Lee(you hate it when I am right...)

I can see the little bit of spittle at the corners of your mouth, and I sense your heart beat in the 180's when you type. You forgot the "What?".

 

[doh]

All koolaid aside, I kind of agree with Boyd on the other thread. Delta needs to trim a VP or 2 from the payroll. I was talking to a friend in TPA who worked for Delta for 30 years and is now the FAA liason for AA and Delta in TPA. He told me his friend in ATL just got promoted to president of world port in ATL because of his years of service. In these hard times I don't see how management can justify this if they are really doing what's right by shareholders.