Here it comes Eagle

[9rj9]

Allied Pilots Association Leadership Meets With AMR Executives in Effort to Identify Solutions to Current Challenges
Monday November 11, 7:21 pm ET


FORT WORTH, Texas--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Nov. 11, 2002--Leaders of the Allied Pilots Association, the collective bargaining agent for the 13,500 pilots of American Airlines (NYSE:AMR - News), met today with AMR CEO Don Carty and other senior executives to discuss ways to address the financial challenges at American Airlines.
"APA is seeking to have a voice in the future direction of American Airlines to enhance prospects for recovery at the airline," said Captain John E. Darrah, APA President.

During the meeting, APA discussed the company's ability to compete in the small jet marketplace. APA's intent is to work with the company to provide access to additional revenue streams while at the same time securing additional flying and expansion opportunities for pilots. The type of mutually beneficial agreement sought would allow American Airlines to expand in the small jet arena with a competitive cost structure while eliminating outsourcing. In APA's view, such an agreement would help position the company to become a much stronger, more competitive airline.

Aware of the financial turbulence impacting employees at other carriers, APA emphasized that the union is prepared to explore a range of compensation options that would simultaneously benefit its membership while allowing AMR to remain competitive. Presently, American Airlines' pilots work at deeply discounted rates as compared to their peers at Northwest, Delta and even United.

"Our current rates are still below the latest United pilot pay rates negotiated last week even though the prospect of bankruptcy looms over that company," said Darrah.

APA is also working with the other labor groups on the AMR property in an effort to identify mutually beneficial solutions. The hope at this time is that the fruits of a labor-management approach will provide the company a tool to facilitate a seamless operation with greater flexibility. Managing and leading all labor groups on the property in this effort will provide needed labor stability and help abate further financial erosion of the company.

"The APA pilots are attempting to proactively address volatile market shifts by addressing operational issues, ways to increase revenues, and product flexibility. We hope to position the company advantageously for recovery, improve the corporate balance sheet and make American Airlines the number one choice of the traveling public," said Darrah.

"It is time for a new direction at American Airlines," said Darrah. "We want this meeting to demonstrate that the employees of AMR wish to participate with management in a shared vision and commitment to the future of this company."

 

[Airline Pilot27]

"Here it comes Eagle"????
Too early to tell how it will affect the eagle pilots but I do know one thing. With all the outsourcing, Excecutive sell off, and numerous contract violations...things can't get much worse. This could actually be pretty good for us....crossing fingers.

 

[AAflyer]

Airline Pilot 27

I think you are right, something BIG is in the wind. Let's make sure the mainline and eagle pilots stick together on this one, Ole Don would sell us ALL if he could save a buck.

Unity,
AAflyer

 

[bigr]

What does "outsourcing" mean?

 

[H8U]

Hiring AFELLOWAVIATOR's friends at the contract carriers.

 

[LearLove]

Funny I like that above post, here at the WO it means seeing mesa, chit and others parked where your Dash used to be.

Any way one thing I picked up from the first post (and please correct me if I'm wrong) but this APA dude is saying about making less than United pilots and so forth - Come one guys, nobody cares, yes your making less than Northwest boy but your still making 2.5 times as much as the avg. 2 income US family. Thats why nobody cares especially thoes outside of the industry. Like when the Mainline U pilots write in USA Today about going from 130,000 to 100,000. Hello get a clue mainline boy nobody cares. Like I said the avg. us household 2 income is pulling in 55-60 grand ans these guys are out bitchin in the national and philly local papers, this is why people hate airline pilots guys. Its people like Beebe who wrote in a philly paper about not being able to send his kids to college on 150,000 per year. What do you think the average joe thinks when he reads this? My mom was the one who showed me the article, maybe Beebe should consult her, she put 2 kids thru private college on a nurses salary, she was laughing at this guy.

 

[AAflyer]

Well LearLove,

I guess I could give a rats ass if you went from 42 an hour to 28 bucks an hour. Ya know it is all in perspective, If we make less you should make less,right.

Just a little over two years ago, everyone was congratulating UAL boys on well deserved contract. One that put them at them at the front of the industry, considering the years they went with out. Would you like me to expand on the B-scale at AA over 15 years that cost our pilots a bucket load of money, yet earned the company increadible profits.

Now what, we are all over-paid again. I expect that from the ignorant public, but explaining that to the likes of you. Thanks. How familiar, I am explaining my pay again to a regional airline pilot.

AAflyer

 

[ACWild]

You make this statement earlier;

Let's make sure the mainline and eagle pilots stick together on this one

Then you follow it up with this;

Now what, we are all over-paid again. I expect that from the ignorant public, but explaining that to the likes of you. Thanks. How familiar, I am explaining my pay again to a regional airline pilot.

Talking down to the "regional airline pilot" doesn't exactly promote unity.

 

[LearLove]

Come on AAflyer, You've got to be kidding me, right!!!!!!! Maybe I'm speaking in Russian to you or I'm not making myself clear. These guys (you to) are still making 2 two 3 time what the rest of the country is making ( on a household level even). It would be different if you guys took pay cuts to poverity level or couldn't pay your bills anymore. If you can't pay your bills on 100,000 plus grand you've got a problem. Thats what these guys are bitchin about. I mean how do you justify that to avg. joe who busts his butt 40 hr/week for 35-40 grand. They laugh at us. The day that article in USA today came out I was still on reserve as a capt. That day was one of thoes days you know 2 DH fly one leg DH here, no go here we need you over here fly one more ect..... so I got all these looks sitting with the pax as they read what this guy wrote, (I whish I still had the article) I was like if you only knew (to the pax). Second for the record I was not thanking UAL guys for their pay raise 2 years ago. Acutally (and I know i'll get loads of crap for this) I think the mainline guys (all airlines) are overpaid (especially at the top end). For example look at U mainline, These guys are basically regional pilots and should be paid so, thats a large part of our problem here at U (and yes I know management take the cake also, among many other things). Bottom line is I'm like any other red blodded american, throw $$ at me and I'll take it but at some point we reach a point where it becomes negative and we reached that about 2 years ago. Lastly I'd like to comment on what you said there about the UAL guys getting back for the "years they went without". Buddy I'm the son of a UAL pilot, I've grown up in the industry and never seen a major airline (one with steady employment) pilot go without. (exception here, Eastern, Pan AM, braniff or long laid off guys) I never went without, even when my dad was on furlough in the early 80's. Well I kind of take that back alittle, There are guys that go without, these are the guys that have 4 cars, 3 wives, 3 shore houses, a pitts (they don't fly) and 2 boats sitting in dry dock. No wonder they bitch every time theres a pay cut, furlough or downgrade. They spend every dime like theres no tomorrow.

 

[80drvr]

Cut to the chase and say it....what should a major airline pilot make? While your at it what should doctors, laywers, accountants or any other profession that "may not be going without" make? Should the government regulate it or should these professions just voluntarily impose a salary cap to the median income? I seem to recall other countries have tried this little experiment and it didn't work out too well.

Or is it that noboby should earn more than you?

37 y.o. AA MD80 FO (made 84k in 4th year and would make roughly the same if not more if I get recalled to active duty)

 

[LearLove]

"Or is it that noboby should earn more than you?", No its not anything like that, but if you want to swap pay checks that can be arranged. 84 grand, OK thats enough for me to pay off my car, pick up a C-150 for fun flying, max out the 401K, stuff enough away to cover a 6 month furlough/job loss and still pay regular bills.

And what do lawyers, docs or even avtive duty have to do with it?

Govt. involvement, could be a good thing, look at what they pay their own guys, controllers, FAA guys and they don't even have to fly. And think of the work ruled, look at the ones they have.

 

[Airline Pilot27]

LearLove,
I hate to hear from some of the fellow regional pilots that Major pilots are overpaid. That attitude normally stems from someone who is new to aviation. What a crock of ----. You should know better than that so I will not go into the details of what an airline pilot is worth. You should have a better opinion of your occupation. Did you know that many of the other "higher" proffesions out there start out at your Captains pay rates. Instead you should be focusing on bringing the industries pay rates up.

 

[Airline Pilot27]

AA Flyer:
"Let's make sure the mainline and eagle pilots stick together on this one, Ole Don would sell us ALL if he could save a buck."

I couldn't agree with you more.

 

[BEXFlyer]

LEARLOVE = MGT or A Hole (or perhaps both)

 

[dashtrash]

LearLove does not speak for the rest of us. He'll learn!

 

[LearLove]

Yep I knew this would back me into a corrner. First I'm far from MGT and nowhere near as big an A$$HOLE COCK SUCKER that BEXFlyrer is.

Listen the industry is drastically changing. Whats the biggest factor you ask, the entrance of low cost carriers and yes SWA is driving it with expansion coupled with less pax due to 911 and the economy. Back in 1991 low cost carriers made up <10% of the pax traffic. Now post 911 its like 45% and climbing. The trunk airlines can't continue the way they have. The way we have, you ask? Yes making a boatload of $$$ in the good years enough to make it thru the bad years (this is historically how all the trunk airlines have survived (except SWA) even pre dereg.)

Well boys in the next "good years" the Trunk guys won't make as much $$$$. Again why you ask? Because of all the JB, SWA. Airtran...ect. Also further hurting the Big guys is the attitude that the public just won't deal with skyhigh ticket prices anymore. We will get some back when the economy picks up but not as much as we used to or need to carry us. And my friends as much as I hate his MGT a$$ Seagull and the rest of the suits realize this. Hence the change, and unfortunatly for us PILOTS not good. Does this mean we all should be like JB or SWA? no again that won't work, we've seen this (metrojet, UAL shuttle). However what we (trunk/major carriers) need to do is continue a vast or larger route system than the low cost boys (same as offering more destination options) but our pax load are lower. Why? you guessed it, more and growing JB and SWA companies taking our pax. So no more MD80 between PHL-AVP, here comes the 50 seat RJ. Where's the prob we have today you ask? Well years ago when the low cost guys came to play and the CRJ came on the scene the Major guys and ALPA failed to see what was happening. They had stars in their eyes and dreams of widebodies for all. But it just isn't so, am I not correct? Its not just us the pilots that need to rethink pay, look at the ramp guys (using U mainline ramp workers here). Come on 60 grand a year to sling bags, sleep, and wave wands. OOPS waving wands and driving a tug is a job for a mechanic, whatever. I think thats the only thing I'll ever agree with Lorenzo on. FA's too, Also gate agents.

Final word: Listen I'd like to see all airline worers, he1l all workers everywhere for that fact get paid and laid with the big bucks, but the way I see it (read again JUST THE WAY I SEE IT)- myself just me so don't call me an A$$ hole, MGT dork, inexperienced "new to aviation" yah whatever Airlinepilot27, or anything else - isn't going to happen, there are just so many people flying any too many seats out there, something like that supply and demand crap we slept thru in college.

Good Day

 

[Rook]

Can't we all just get along?

No?

ok never mind.

Rook
600' AGL Autopilot on.
'WHEW!'

 

[bulldog]

Here's a novel idea.

Every pilot should get paid as much as they can get, when they can get it, and for as long as they can. They should do so without gloating!

Equally, every pilot should take a pay cut when they have to and for as long as they have to. They should do this without bithcing.

Bulldog

 

[Freight Dog]

LearLove, I gotta say it bro - you carry a very negative attitude. You are playing right into management's hands by fighting your fellow pilots instead of placing the blame where it lies.

Here's the bulk of the problem in today's industry:

- The Big 5 concentrated on the business traveler, so no wonder... when the economy plunges, the travel demand doesn't necessarily slump as bad as BUSINESS travel demand.

Airlines like SWA, JB, Airtran, and low-fare carriers concentrate on John Q Public in good times AND bad times. Now, John Q Public also wants to travel, however, they just can't afford to pay astronomical fares that the Big Boys charge. It is the entire business model of the Big Wigs that is flawed... is it the labor that runs the show? Naw... it's the management.

You mentioned UAL, and you blame UAL pilots for a lot of what's going on. Sure, their payscales are up there.... BUT:

- UAL management squandered billions of dollars on failed and just downright STUPID business decisions like failed purchase of USAirways at a ridiculously high price. So when that took a dump, they paid additional 50 mil to U. Then, look at the millions of dollars UAL blew on Avolar which never got off the ground. We won't even go into other UAL failed ventures like the stocks... I believe it was UAL management that was responsible for all of the above, so right now, EVERYBODY has to take cuts at UAL to pay for management stupidity.

Easy with the attitude, brah!

 

[FLYnMONKEYS]

What are the current CRJ and CRJ70 Pay rates for Capt at Eagle?

 

[H8U]

They dont get paid enough, considering they have up to 70 pax's lives in their hands every time they fly. Management and their families fly on the airplanes, right? How can they do that knowing that they are screwing over the people up in the cockpit. If they only care about themselves, that should be reason enough to keep pilots happy.

 

[eaglefly]

IMO , there is "nothing big in the wind". I still firmly believe that AMR will keep the two groups seperate and keep RJ's at Eagle.

Management and the APA have had a big meeting before and have usually released a similar positive statement. They are encouraged that employees realize the need for change. But you'll notice they mention no acceptance of the one list concept or mainline RJ concept. Just vague positive spin.

I would love to see it, but my gut tells me its the same people throwing up the same smoke.

From past practice, it goes against their M.O.

IMO, they're finalizing force majuere plans when the IRAQ thing hits the fan after the holidays.

38 y.o. Eagle CJ capt.(made 86K in 14th year).

 

[H8U]

They should double your salary.