Here is where your ALPA dues dollars are going

[labbats]

Let me ask you, I know the answer, but I still like to ask. Would an employee making minimum wage, 40 hours a week @ $11/ hr make more than an F/O at Pinnacle?

If the answer is yes, I believ we have our answer as to what ALPA has done for all of us!

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/content/view/78/18/


Let me do the math for you...


$1760 Walmart
$1575 Pinnacle


Way to go ALPA!

Minimum wage isn't $11 an hour.

 

[slowto250]

Here's a thought: Run for your respective LEC rep positions.

Lead, follow, or get outta the way !

 

[Sniper Bob]

Looks like you union guys are so busy watching airline management, you forgot to watch your own.


Their salaries would not be an issue if they actually produced.

You can clean house, trash the unions, or quit your yappin.

Good luck with whatever you choose.

 

[Traveller Pilot]

The good old "dog food union" ALPO....

 

[Resume Writer]

I think this is unreal! There really is not a lot line pilots can do except vote out a union, which is a huge task and will never happen.

I just got done doing a resume for a Vice President of Tax for a $1 billion company. He has his J.D., his Legal Letters Masters, and was recruited to a company to figure out the best way to merge the company with another without huge tax implications. He has to abide by Sarbanes-Oxley legislation for reporting (part of the trickle done from the Enron scandal) or can be indicted, had to perform due diligence on the merging company - it goes on with the amount of responsibility he has in his current job.

Wanna know his salary? $190,000 a year.

Yet, there are titles on that ALPA list that one could never decipher what they do.

Perhaps an answer to this would be for the membership as a whole to have these individuals justify their salary. Maybe there could be a movement to pay them based upon performance. (I know, a novel concept)

If you all want things to change, then you need to organize the membership. Get petitions signed - do whatever is necessary. It might take some time, but it probably could be done.

JMHO,
Kathy

 

[Traveller Pilot]

The whole thing is a huge fat beaurocracy

 

[Catbird]

Its called CORRUPTION. You can steal more with a briefcase than with a gun. Especially when it's Airline pilots dollars. Financial brilliance isn't legendary in the piloting proffesion. Accountability runs a close second. The Corruption at ALPA is very well known in the boardrooms of Airline managment. Both groups choke when the word "Integrity" is spoken.

 

[Sphincter Boy]

Where can I apply?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Yet, there are titles on that ALPA list that one could never decipher what they do.

Perhaps an answer to this would be for the membership as a whole to have these individuals justify their salary. Maybe there could be a movement to pay them based upon performance. (I know, a novel concept)

If you all want things to change, then you need to organize the membership. Get petitions signed - do whatever is necessary. It might take some time, but it probably could be done.

If they were educated on how ALPA functions, they wouldn't have to decipher anything. ALPA has its faults. I am not championing the organization, rather holding up a mirror.

There has been plenty of cost cutting at ALPA. The publishing/printing dept has been shut down. Less people doing more work. The mag is thinner.

But you want pay cuts via national officers.... How is the membership going to cut ALPA salaries? I mean afterall the membership provides the salaries via dues right? Let's get the membership organized like you suggest...

Organize the membership? Nice. Would you call 5% particaption rate at LEC meetings organized? Is 35% voter participation in LEC elections organized?

No one seemed to cared, except maybe about their golf game, in the late 90's when industry leading contracts were being signed. WOW! ALPA was great!

But even in the good times, you can't get pilots educated and informed. They don't know how to use ALPA to thier benefit, nor do they really care to learn. They want their "leading pay" and that is it.

The only time you can get pilots attention is when you start talking about thier wallets. And this is no different. On this issue, pilots are whining about thier empty wallets by pointing out ALPA National's pay.

Look. I don't like how Congress has carved out thier own special Social Security program. The way I see it, I have two choices. Do something about it, or keep my whiny, uneducated (I really don't know too much about it...) 'member of the masses' mouth shut.

This submarine thread surfaces about every five weeks. It is the same ol' blah, blah, blah...... Which is, "Oh whoa is me, I am suffering, I'm concessionary, who can I blame? Where can I point fingers?"

This typical thread offers no solutions. I'd rather listen to mediorce freshmen sorority sisters whine about not being able to get a date, when all they have to do is look in the mirror.

I will ask my reps about it,

Phone Rings...
ALPA Rep- "hello"
ALPA Member- "Hi I've got an ALPA issue"
R- ok, what is it?
M- These ALPA national salaries are out of control, why is that?
R- Are you serious? I thought you had a chief pilot breathing down your neck. But since you took the time to call, I'll work with you.
M- Ok, so whats the deal?
R- I don't know, you called me...
M- Well, these guys shouldn't be making so much money when we pilots are making so little.
R- OK, well, I don't necessarily agree with you, but, what do you want to do about it?
M- uhhhhhhhhhh, I was hoping you'd tell me?
R- I told you I don't really have an issue with it.
M- But the salaries are outrageous.
R- That is your opinion.
M- Well I insist you do something. You are MY representative.
R- Calling me is like calling disaptch. You need to have a well thought out, pragmatic plan. You need to be looking for concurence, not hand holding. BTW, There is a 66% chance you didn't even particapte in the election.
M- well.......... ok, I didn't vote. But I still pay dues, so lets figure this out.
R- Ok, ALPA is a democratic organization. Before the next meeting IAW the C&BL send an agenda item to our council Sec/treas and bring up the issue there.
M- Huh? No, I want you to look into this.
R- Listen, I am a volunteer, I've got a family and Line Pilots getting hammered by management. I'll provide resources but you gotta do the work. I'll contact ALPA and someone from National will attend our meeting in person or via conf call to explan the high salaries in question. Once you have the information, if you decide to carry the issue fwd, I'll make a motion that you Chair an exploratory committe on ALPA national Salaries to be reported to the membership at the next LEC meeting. If your political movement still has steam you can pass a resolution to take action. Based on the avg. particpation rate, there is a 95% chance you won't show up to the LEC meeting.
M- ...................................
R- Hello?

why don't you give us all a complete summary of how the salaries break down

Because the ALPA national salaries aren't my issue. They are your issue. Spoon feed yourself. No one is going to find answers on flightinfo. Just regurgitated negativity. I have other battles I choose to fight. Like this one: Uneducated and apathetic ALPA pilots who think they are buying a service with thier dues money when in actuality they are supporting a resource.

 

[JohnDoe]

quote from rez o lewshun:

"This typical thread offers no solutions."


But it DOES point out the problem to people who have no idea the problem exists. Then, maybe a few of them WILL try and do something about it. Kinda hard to make a change if you don't know that the need exists for change.



"Because the ALPA national salaries aren't my issue...............I have other battles I choose to fight."

Then what are you doing wasting your time in this thread at all?? Hello pot, this is the kettle.......

 

[Resume Writer]

Rez,


I understand what you are saying, however, let's look at some of these job titles that repeat, just in a different order or multiple same titles:

Dir Representative $399,866
Dir Representati $377,852
Asst Dir Represe $280,516
Asst Dir Represe $276,349
Asst Dir Represe $253,357
Sr. Dir Represt $ 217,826

Legal Director, $361,802
Supervisor Legal $279,938
Supervisor Legal $ 248,929
Legal Supervisor $248,440
Managing Attorney $230,670
Sr. Attorney, $ 205,736
Sr. Attorney $187,753
Sr. Attorney $185,467
Sr. Attorney $156,041
Sr. Benefits Atto $ 156,121
Sr. Representativ $154,515


Sr. Contract Admi $225,467
Sr. Contract Admi $ 221,496
Sr. Contract Admin $220,721
Sr. Contract Admi $218,275
Sr. Contract Admi $202,568
Sr Contract Admi $ 197,628
Sr Contract Admi $169,963
Sr. Contract Admi $ 168,834
Sr. Contract Admin $151,483
Sr Contract Admi $165,677

Dir, Human Resources $183,813


Now, first let me state that I am VERY well-versed in salaries. I have worked with executives in my business for 18 years. I can assure you that I have not come across ONE Director of HR that makes $183k per year that directs the HR efforts of about 200-500 people (taking a guess at the total staff of ALPA).

Typical salary range for this position is anywhere from about $90k - $145k depending on location. Remember, these are individuals directing the hiring, benefits and compensation for multi-billion dollar corporations with THOUSANDS of employees.

On to the "Sr. Contract Administrators." Now, I understand that there are probably many of these for every airline ALPA represents. However, what do they do? Once a contract is ratified, the people dealing with the grievances are usually the Grievance Chairs at the MEC or LEC level. What exactly are they "administrating?" If there are legal problems as a result of those grievances, then the attorneys are called in.

Then, let's look at all the attorneys. My favorite is the "supervisor legal" and then "legal supervisor." Is there a difference in job titles? Exactly why does ALPA need all these lawyers? Believe me, I understand the need for attorneys to represent all of the different airlines. But the salaries are very high. I gave the example last night of the VP of Tax for a $1 billion corporation. Want to know how many "assistants" he had? He has ONE attorney under him and a paralegal!! Believe me, there are a lot more "ramifications" to him dealing with corporate taxation then there are to the ALPA attorneys.

What exactly is a Dir Representative? It must be an important job, because they sure are paid a tidy sum!

I am not here to start a war with you, Rez, but give me a break! How many pilots have lost their pensions? Where were the attorneys and contract administrators then?

I think the pilots need to get together and hire an outside consultant, just like corporations do, to perform a "position audit" and recommend cutting positions that are redundant or to "right-size" the salaries. Some of these people make more money than airline CEOs.

Stepping off my soap box now....

Kathy

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Hey
How many of these positions are full time? How many are staffed by pilots whom receive no pay from the their employer? Not defending there seems to be bloat in every sector. I am having a hard time getting excited when airline pilots, who are the last highly paid, collectively bargained workforce are being cutdown by mgmt. Don't like it? Get all your booger eating buddies, vote yourselves into power and stand up and be a target yourself. Jeeze what a bunch of pathetic whiners!
PBR

 

[FoxHunter]

No one is going to find answers on flightinfo.

Well your not going to learn any thing about ALPA compensation in the ALPA magazine, ALPA announcements, ALPA Press Releases, ALPA Officers, ALPA Web Site.

BTW DWs ALPA pension will be $149,000+ per year for 8 years as President, will go to a MAX of $220,000+ if he serves 12 years.

 

[Clutch_Cargo]

I think Kathy is right... at face value there seems to be a lot of waste here and many of these salaries appear disproportionate with those for similar titles in industry. But, out of curiosity, I looked to see what other union leaders make. Like mentioned above, they don't just hand out that info so I stopped after looking at just one... Teamsters. They've got 270 union officials making six figures. I was surprised to see that Hoffa himself only made $240k. I say only because I figured that he'd have a much higher salary considering the size of the IBT compared to that of ALPA. In any case, a making career in union representation would appear to be lucrative choice. The info is out there if you dig but I think the salaries of union officials should be readily disclosed to their members. Then it's up to you... if you've be made aware and it concerns you, use your vote to fix it. If you don't then I don't think you've much right to bitch about it.

http://www.tdu.org/HoffaWatch/_100_000_Club/_100_000_club.html
http://www.tdu.org/_100_000_Club_2004.pdf

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez,

Typical salary range for this position is anywhere from about $90k - $145k depending on location.

Is the mantra "you get what you can negotiate valid?" I mean, as an Air Line Pilots, we had to justify the UAL/DAL salaries in the late 90's. Should we have advocated pay cuts, cause someone else didn't like the salaries we had or coveted?

On to the "Sr. Contract Administrators." Now, I understand that there are probably many of these for every airline ALPA represents. However, what do they do? Once a contract is ratified, the people dealing with the grievances are usually the Grievance Chairs at the MEC or LEC level. What exactly are they "administrating?" If there are legal problems as a result of those grievances, then the attorneys are called in.

You third sentence speaks volumes. Contract Admininstrtors are lawyers. Many of them handle several pilot groups (airlines) and are over worked. These lawyers are usually true unionist. They aren't the Johnny Corcoran and F. Lee Baily's looking for glory and cash. They are worth every penny. Ever buy a product and need technical support? After the CBA is signed, it needs constant maintenence. Expecially when management changes thier interpretation on long standing sections. Since the CBA is a legal document, pilots need lawyers to help navigate the waters. The Grievence chair and MEC chair constantly work with CA's. When individual pilots get the carpet dance the Status Reps talk with the CA's. When a pilot is fired unjustly the CA's are there. Everybody hates lawyers until they need one, then they are worth every penny.

Usually its the passengers complaining about how high ticket prices somehow have to be related to high pilot salaries. And here we have pilots complaining about high salaries for the very people that provide services such pilots can't do with out. How interesting....

Then, let's look at all the attorneys. My favorite is the "supervisor legal" and then "legal supervisor." Is there a difference in job titles? Exactly why does ALPA need all these lawyers? Believe me, I understand the need for attorneys to represent all of the different airlines.

What exactly is a Dir Representative? It must be an important job, because they sure are paid a tidy sum!

ALPA is nothing but a political organization. Laywers are good to have when you are pushing political agenda's, lobbying Congress, legislation and managing Collective Bargaining Contracts which are protected by the RLA, a federal code. I mean airline management has thier labor relations (read union busting) lawyers on retainer, shouldn't we the unions (ALPA) have our guns?

Everything is political at ALPA. This is a shock to many, but it is how its been since 1931.

I am not here to start a war with you, Rez, but give me a break! How many pilots have lost their pensions? Where were the attorneys and contract administrators then?

I know where you are trying to come from, but its not a valid position. Look at it this way. What IF the ALPA CA's and lawyers weren't there. How would the UAL/DAL pilots like it if management decided unilaterally to cut pay and work rules? Would it be more or less? Unions provide workers the ability to bargain for their pay work & rules, whether it's concessionary or not. Also keep in mind that ALPA didn't cause the pension collapse. If so, how? And the concessions were voted on by the membership. Democracy and free will is better than command and control via management.

I think the pilots need to get together and hire an outside consultant, just like corporations do, to perform a "position audit" and recommend cutting positions that are redundant or to "right-size" the salaries. Some of these people make more money than airline CEOs.

The pilots can get together. Every quarter at an LEC meeting. But they don't. LEC meetings are cute. Usually half the sign in sheet is LEC Officers and Committee members, the rest, is about 5-10 members.... It's like preaching to the chior.

And this is a major problem. Everyone pays 1.95%, and stays uneducated. With ignorance comes paranoia, fear and conspiracy theories. Pilots thinking ALPA volunteers are boozing it up, FLP spending is out of control and Reps on the take. ALPA volunteers have a saying- "the harder you work for your pilot group, the harder they kick you in the nuts".

you should see the the restaurants they take the reps out to eat four star joints and good french vino !

Who exactly is THEY? I hear when a pilot retires he gets a copy of the BIG Picture signed by THEY.

If you think the Fox is guarding the Hen house at your ALPA property then ask questions. But usually, sport bitcking on flightinfo satisfies the masses. And that says more about the pilot group than the ALPA Reps.

Where is the issue? On flightinfo behind moniker names? Take the issue to task.

Finally, I'm not saying ALPA is a white Knight. Hardly. It is all political, so some guys will get screwed. But this thread is so far out there, there needs to be a reality check

 

[AA717driver]

(I have to type fast, if my wife catches wind of this topic, she'll throw me off the computer and I'll be on the island of misfit pilots with Hugh J. )

One of the problems is that any rep who gets elected starts lapping form the flight pay loss trough. This is a huge benefit if you live in domicile. Then, they go to the MEC meetings and all the booze you can drink, $80 bottles of wine, the aforementioned lavish meals and nailing the MEC office secretaries... Pretty sweet for those of us living on $1.50 perdiem.

The real kicker is when you to the BOD meeting in FL. WOW! Now they have really got their hooks in you. Pretty soon, you'll be scheming on how to get a job in Herndon. I had a friend who ended up with a knife in his back from his "best friend" who was eyeing that Herndon domicile job. I've done my best to stymie that ****sucker's ALPA career the best I could. Now, in my absence, he's sucking at the APA trough.

It's certainly appropriate that ALPA's HQ is in the D.C. area, the seat of corruption in the U.S. TC

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

It's certainly appropriate that ALPA's HQ is in the D.C. area, the seat of corruption in the U.S. TC

Which (indirectly) brings up a good question....is it the job or is it the person that makes them become "corrupt"?

Like a politician, think some people get into it for a noble cause but seem to get mesmorized (sp?) and caught up in the system. Same thing could be said for management. Seems like it is only the Hollywood people who can still maintain their dignity once they hit the big time (sarcasm).

 

[AA717driver]

I think it is, for most who get caught up, the system that corrupts them. There are some, like my "acquaintance" who will do just about anything to avoid working on the line.

Above the committee level, I believe there are many who would fit well in either union "leadership" or management. They soon become indistinguishable.TC

 

[surplus1]

There are many issues, as anyone who reads my posts knows, on which I am highly critical of ALPA but Rez O. Lewshun should not be left to the wolves and alone on this one. He's right, there's a lot of misinformation and lack of information evidenced by the replys in this thread.

In the original post, only 4 of the jobs listed are filled by pilots, i.e., President, 1st VP, VP Admin and VP Finance. The President is full-time and salaried. His salary is determined by the Board of Directors, each of whom is an elected pilot representative. There are guidelines that govern the President's salary. One of them is that it may not be less than he could earn flying the line at his respective airline, including night and international differential pay where applicable.

The current President is a senior NWA Captain of the B747-400, international, equipment 1/2 day, 1/2 night. He is at the max pay level for his company. His basic hourly rate is $232. He has an 2.4% defined benefit retirement plan and profit sharing (now negligible). His international per diem rate is $2.05 per hour. If he were to fly the max of 1000 hrs per year, which he could do if he chose, his base pay would be $232,000, plus the international and night/day overrides. On top of that he would draw per diem of an estimated 250 hrs/mo. That's just the base and does not include the value of retirement contributions made by the company or any other fringe benefit.

I happen to have a personal friend who flys the same airplane for the same company. He is also senior enough to be on the highest pay scale. I don't know exactly how many hours my friend flys in a year, but I do know that it is NOT the maximum (he's lazy). His W2 last year was in excess of $350K. I'd like to see you tell him that he's overpaid.

The ALPA President has to live in DC, whether he wants to or not. He gets allowances to cover those costs. As presient of ALPA he can't live in a tenement and deal with the people that he has to. So, he gets an apartment, which I believe is in the Watergate building. It's expensive, as is all housing of quality in DC. Of necessity, he has to entertain a lot of politicians and airline executives. His expense allowances are not inconsistent with what that costs. He gets a car, paid for by ALPA, and someone to drive it (although he often drives himself). Having a driver sort of helps when you have to go to so many events on "the hill" and run so many errands on an almost daily basis. He's a politician, dealing with the high and mighty in DC, and they don't eat at Mac Donald's. To me, his expenses are justified. If you want to play in the big leaguse in Washington, it costs big money to do it.

I'm no fan of the current ALPA President, but his compensation is not really that far out of line for the job he is expected to do. You all need to be realistic. If you expect the man to be dealing with Senators, Congressmen, the Secretary of Transportation and Labor, etc., none of which he would have to do flying the line, then you have to pay for it.

The other 3 National Officers on the "evil" list are all earning salaries in accordance with what they could earn at their respective airlines.

Most, if not all of the other salaries listed apply to members of the so-called ALPA staff. These people are not pilots. Some of the lawyers and top level Administrators do have very high compensation. As in every company, some may be worth it and some not, depending on how you see what they do. There are two or three that I personally think are higher than they ought to be.

Enter a part of the equation that many of you don't appear to realize. Most of the other staff employees listed are unionized. Yes, that's right, they belong to labor unions themselves. Their "contracts" are the product of collective bargaining with ALPA. Many a time these negotiations have come very close to a strike as ALPA officials strive to control costs. Usually ALPA "caves" at the end. Now use your imagination just a little and think of what it would be like in terms of PR if ALPA, itself a labor union, was to be shut down by a strike. For practical reasons, that can't happen. Consequently, the staff have negotiated some very good contracts. By the way, the lawyers that are called Contract Administrators (CA's) are themselves members of their union.

Someone said the Contract Administrators aren't necessary. That just tells me that person doesn't have a clue. These people often represent several airlines each. They are involved in all contract negotiations. They play a role in every major grievance. They defend individual pilots before the FAA enforcement people. On top of that they often have to literally baby sit dozens of elected pilot representatives, who have the political power but are more often than not highly incompetent in labor relations and representation. Remember, the "representatives" are pilots. They are great at flying airplanes, but given the apathetic attention to their selection that is prevalent among pilot groups, a great many of them are not the shining kinghts in armour that you seem to believe. They do the best they can, but without the CA's the truth is they would not do much of anything but spin their wheels. Join the IBT or the IAM and you'll know what I mean. In my opinion, these people earn their money more than anyone on that list.

The CA's bosses are the high salaried "attorneys" on the list. Some of those aren't worth a plug nickle from my perspective, but they don't get there because they're smart. Remember seniority, the pilots shield? Well, they have the same system. Sometimes you get what you ask for and that is no less evident in the ALPA staff than it is in the left seat of airliners. Not all Captains are beacons of light, and neither are all lawyers. However, your "number" puts you into a lot of places you might not otherwise reach. Everything has an up and a down side and seniority is among those things.

Flight Pay Loss (FPL) is one of the highest if not THE highest cost items. The reps are volunteers. You can't expect them to give up all their off days and drop trips to attend required functions with zero compensation. When they do have to drop a trip for union work, the airline continues to pay them and the union reimburses the airline. That is the source of FPL. Not only does the union have to pay the airline the pilots trip pay, but it also has to pay the cost of that pilots' fringe benefits. Sometimes this fringe benefit override can be as high as 40% although recent concessions have lowered that. However, the override is a contractual percentage so it does not cost the union less until the contract is renegotiated. These factors are all a part of the cost equation.

One 717 fellow refered to fetherbedding reps and booze at MEC meetings. I don't know his experience, but as far as I know, ALPA doesn't pay for booze at local or MEC meetings. I'm not saying the booze is never there, but in almost every case that part of the bill is paid for by the participating pilots, not by the union. At national functions, that is not the case. I've never seen a local representative (within his own airline) get an expense reimbursement that included alcohol. Obviously I can't speak for everyone.

As for the BOD meetings. Yes, they are held in Florida. There are three prime reasons for that. 1) hotels in the Washington, DC area are a lot more expensive than they are in FL. 2) ALPA doesn't normaly hold its BOD meetings in non-union facilities. That limits the choices. 3) Finding a facility large enough to accomodate an ALPA BOD meeting is not as easy as it looks. Apart from that, pilots have to get to these meetings so, holding them in locations that do not have good airline access is not very bright.

None of what I've said is intended to "justify" anyting, but rather to explain some of the factors to those that may not understand. ALPA is far from perfect, but the allegations of corruption made on this board are not justified. ALPA's books are not secret from its members. You may not like what the union or some particular union official is doing, but they are NOT lining their own pockets with the pilots money. That is an unfounded allegation that has no basis in fact. There are no Jimmy Hoffas in ALPA.

We have as pilots many reasons to complain about ALPA's failures at the bargaining table and its internal politics but, in my opinion, fiduciary corruption is not one of them.

As for the efforts and the work of ALPA's staff, i.e., non-pilot employees, with very rare exception it is nothing but outstanding in both dedication and quality.

To those of you so eager to tear it down I say this: Don't sh_t where you eat; particularly not in public.

 

[Freight Dog]

Next thing you know, we'll see Surplus in the terminal proudly showing his shiny, 25-year ALPA pin with a battle star on his tie.