Here is goes...leave CMR for Flex

[gordon24]

Got an offer from flex on the lr-45. I'm currently flying for Comair...almost 2 years there. I can hold a decent line, 4 on-3off, about 14 days off a month. Money is good, roughly 39-40k gross this year. I commute, which is not cool, but 99.9% of the time I don't have a problem getting to work. We do have a commuter clause at CMR, so that is always a nice backup. Of course, summer time and holidays always make the commute interesting.

I always wanted to do some corporate flying and have been interested in the fracs for awhile. I have a 6mo old son, so time at home is important. Don't know if I dig that 28 day x 13 bids a year at flex. Looks like maybe 11 days off a month or so. Maybe working 20 or so days a year more for about the same pay. I would like being treated more like a person than a bus driver, though.


I read the previous posts on flexjet and it seems like a lot of people have negative things to say. Ran into a netjets guy the other day and he told me he's flown with ex-flex guys at netjets. To me, that is kind of a red-flag. How about some honest feedback concerning average schedules, quality of life, etc, at flex?

I'm sure some will say hold out for fltops or netjets. Problem is, I don't know anyone at either place and don't know if ~2700 total, 700 jet (crj), and no types would get me in the door at netjets. Thanks for an inputs...let the debate begin!

 

[bafanguy]

You answered your own question. An airline pilot is NOT a bus driver...

 

[Heavy Set]

Well, I sympathize with your position. I wouldn't suggest that Flexjet is a bad place to go. I have a few friends there and they enjoy the equipment they fly (both Lear 60). The problem is that both FOs still haven't upgraded to Captain after 4 YEARS.... Sure, most Frax companies have had problems over the last couple of years and upgrades have not happened quickly enough. However, add to that a new and crappy bidding system for schedules and both of my Flexjet friends are very, very frustrated...

It's true that Flexjet is starting to see some great traction with the Challenger 300 with I think 12 new aircraft on the property by year end. That has created a lot of excitement and probably some pilot movement (that and the new Lear 40). So, there is some reason to be optimistic.

Ultimately, I think, IMHO, most fractional wannabes would be happier at Netjets or at FLOPS given the future growth, the much better schedules (7/7 or 8/7) and the long list of gateway domiciles. I also have friends at Netjets and they are VERY PLEASED to be there - all of them have moved up to Captain positions on great airplanes like the Citation X and the G200. Sure, the Netjets situation could be better (starting pay is a bit low), but hopefully the new contract will address some pay and QOL issues.

Leaving Comair might not be such a bad choice given the possibility of reduced regional growth at Delta. Less expensive partners like CHQ, Skywest and possibly Skyway will likely see most of the regional growth going forward given their lower cost structures - that's a fact. Time to upgrade could take A LOT longer (CHQ would be a better choice to get PIC time).

If you do go to Flexjet, check it out and keep the option of networking (big time) with Netjet or FLOPS pilots open in case Flexjet does not turn out to be the great frax company you think it might be. Talk to as many Netjets and FLOPS pilots as possible - and make some friends... You sound like a family man - maybe a 7/7 or 8/7 schedule would be better for you and your family. Plus flying a Citation X wouldn't be so bad (although a Lear 45 certainly isn't bad either...).

Good luck

 

[English]

To add to Heavy Set's comments, it might be easier to make the jump from FlexJet to Flight Ops or NetJets than it would be to make the jump from Comair. Fractionals seem to like pilots with a corporate/fractional/charter background. Doesn't mean you can't do it, it just might be easier with FlexJet on your resume.

 

[General Lee]

I'd try flexjet and get some Lear time on the 45 and then try to get on with Netjets. That Lear 45 looks fast.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[TrumanSparks]

General-

It's the stripes that make it look fast.

 

[On Your Six]

I agree with Heavy and English. Depends on where you eventually want to end up. You probably won't get PIC time any time soon at Comair - PIC time at Flexjet might also be limited given the lack of movement (although Flex is adding a number of new airplanes and the economy is getting better) - need to keep that in mind too.

I say go to Flexjet, check it out, network with NJA and Flight Options pilots, and keep your mind open. If you want to end up as a frax pilot, going to Flexjet first wouldn't be a bad move - you could always try to jump over to NJA with fractional experience if you were so inclined. If you want to eventually fly for Jet Blue, maybe more airline flying is for you. You need to think hard about it. Fractional flying is great for variety of routes and new aircraft - I am sure you are tired of the Comair system by now.

I like the looks of the L45 - looks like a sweet ride....

Good luck.

 

[buttercup]

Gordon,


Congratulations on the birth of your son! I think it is so admirable that he is the first thing you mention when considering which route to take!! I've flown with a few guys that have their priorities screwed up and put the job ahead of their families. I've been at Comair before and now fly frax. There are pros and cons to both. Gunflyer gives wonderful advice!! If you want SWA or Jetblue I have a bunch of buddies at both who are on cloud 9!! Please feel free to PM me if there are any questions or anything I can help you with. I was also a commuter with Comair so I understand what you are going through to a certain extent. Be good!!

 

[cvoav8r]

Depends on what your QOL goals are. I think that if you are inclined to want to see new places and have time to spend there in very accomodations, and make a decent living...then don't second guess a rare oportunity for an airline guy to get into corporate ( our dept has an unspoken no ex-airline pilot will be hired here culture). This maybe your best shot. Coming from corporate, I occasionally think about the airlines, but I never have bothered to pursue it because I make better money, going on other peoples vacations to Europe and the South Pacific, and still get to be home on average 16 days a month. The private sector can be as bad as the worst commuter or better than the best major. QOL lies in pockets of both good and bad, but you have to find some way to get your foot in the door. With that said, if you want to go to a major airline (might be a bit of a delay?) you should probably stick it out at CMR. I know guys that have left corporate to go to a major but I think that it is harder after a while to leave a good job for a seniority number if you are not already used to that environment. Good luck to you in what ever you decide

 

[Frac Daddy]

Ditto to all of what Heavy Set said.

.

 

[TonyC]

I have a 6mo old son, so time at home is important.

You only get one chance to raise him right!



Congrats, and Good Luck!

 

[ozpilot]

Hi Gordon24

I left Comair for Netjets at the end of the strike three years ago. I was a third year Captain at Comair. I not too familar with working conditions at Flexjet so bear in mind my comparison is only to Netjets.

For me it was the right decision. All the good points posted about Netjets are pretty much true. You should be aware however, that flying for a scheduled airline – such as Comair – does have some advantages over fractional flying. Its like comparing driving a limo vs. driving a bus.

As a limo driver you will be expected to have a greater interaction with the passengers, and you will not have the level of support in the field that you have at an airline. If you piss off a passenger at an airline and they don’t come back, it has a minimal impact on the company’s bottom line. If you do it at a fractional where the owner is a multimillionaire it can mean your job.

At Comair its easy to fly a four day trip and never even talk to a passenger; At Netjets you are expected to be not only the pilot but also the customer service representative. You are also expected to be the baggage handler, caterer, aircraft cleaner, security, EMS person etc. etc. Remember that unless you are in the Falcon or the BBJ you will not have the benefit of a Flight Attendant. There’s a reason our company recurrent takes a week! Our job is not just transportation; it is to spoil our passengers rotten. At Netjets ‘whatever it takes’ means just that. Personally I like dealing with my passengers at this level, but if you think your job as a pilot is to simply fly the plane it may not be for you.

At Netjets they expect two things from their pilots: Performance and Attitude. Netjets will tell you that safety is number one and they mean it. In the year that I have been here I have seen numerous examples where the company has put safety before customer consideration. So you must be able to meet the performance standards.

Attitude is also important. Fourteen hour days are not uncommon and you will be expected to deliver the same level of service on the last leg as you did on the first. On the plus side the company is smart enough to realize that the level of service expected by our owners, at the end of the day, is delivered by the pilots. The company will go to extraordinary measures to help us deliver. If you visit Columbus take a tour of the Operations center. Half the people support the customers. Guess what the other half do? They support the pilots. I don’t recall too many of those at Comair.

The bus driver also has the advantage of a fixed schedule. As a limo driver you work schedule is subject to constant change. There are only two things you can be sure of: the company will not touch you on your days off and you will get at least 10 hours of rest each day. But unlike Comair you will find yourself in situations where you are available to the company but not on duty as far as rest is concerned. Its complicated so let me use an example.

Say you finish a trip at 4 in the afternoon. The company tells you that you will be starting you next trip at 10 am the next morning. So far, so good. But according to our contract the company can (and often does) call you out ten hours later (at 2 am) for a trip. So what do you do? Do you go to sleep at 4 (assuming that you can) in order to be awake for 2 or plan to sleep later for the 10 show? The problem is that your14 hours of duty commence when the company calls you, not at the end of your rest period.

If they call you at 2 its possible that you may not have had sufficient sleep. Now let’s say you go to sleep immediately and awake at 2 am but you don’t start until 10. Now its possible for you to be awake for 22 hours (8 + 14) before you next rest period.

Does this sound like a fatigue issue? You bet it is, but here’s the big difference between Comair and Netjets. If you tell Netjets you are too tired to fly then that’s the end of the story. The company does not want you to fly fatigued. Work rules in the Comair contract are more stringent but I believe they are there because they need to be.

I expect the work rules to change with the passage of 91K, but that probabily won't be until next year.

Bottom line: For me the disadvantages of working at Comair had everything to do with how the company treated us and little to do with the nature of the business. At Netjets the disadvantages are all related to the nature of the business which the company does its best to minimize. I love it, but its not for everyone.

Good Luck.

 

[SDCFI]

? for ozpilot

ozpilot - as someone who is trying to decide between airline vs fractional I was just wondering how the pax treat you at Netjets. Do you feel they see you on the same level as themselves or as a bellboy at their beck and call. Also, if you had a problem with a customer treating you like crap would the company back you up or is the customer ALWAYS right? Thanks.

 

[ozpilot]

SDCFI,

A very good question! There are some owners that treat you no better than they treat their domestic staff. These folk consider you no better than a limo driver. The good news is that these owners are in the minority.

Most owners are polite and treat the flight crews well. Most simply want to get on the aircraft and get to where there going with a minimum of fuss.

If an owner seems friendly during the initial greeting, I will usually go back at some point in the flight and see how they are doing. If they are not, or are just indifferent, then I will leave them in peace.

Its intereseting to note that in all the owner surveys that the company has done, the owners rate the service they receive from the pilots as the best part of the program.

As far as a conflict between a passenger and a crew member is concerned: if an owner complains about a crew member then you can bet the pilot will hear about it. He or she may even be invited to Columbus to explain their actions.

Having said that, my experience is that the company will give the pilot a fair hearing. The best way to avoid this problem is to notify the company immediately there is a conflict with an owner. In most cases the problem is resolved right there.

In terms of safety, I have not seen a situation where the company has pressured me to compromise safety to please an owner. If the owners pissed, but the crew made the right decision thats the end of the story. A good example is if we have to divert because the weather is below minimums at the destination. In this situation it is a good idea to give the company a heads up as soon as possible so they can start working out another plan for the owner. The owner may be pissed and complain but the company will back the pilot.

Having said all that, the issue of duty times and crew rest can be an ugly one at Netjets. Scheduling will often ask crews to fly 14 hours with 10 hours rest several days in a row. Many pilots here feel the pressure to get the job done. The company expects you to just say no if your fatriqued but it is your decision. I have called in fatiqued several times and have never had a problem.

 

[Heavy Set]

Yeah, but at the end of the day, you're flying at 0.92 mach and leaving everyone else in your dust... Wave goodbye to the CRJs, 737s and 757s way below.

 

[gordon24]

Thanks for all the advice. I think I agree with gunfyter the most. I don't really see Flex as a place I want to retire from. I don't think it's a smart move to leave CMR to go to Flex to leave there to go to Netjets or Fltops. I'll hold out where I am, enjoy my fairly decent schedule and hopefully get on with Nets or Fltops one day. Again, thanks for the help.

 

[On Your Six]

Good decision. Seriously, try to network better with Netjets and FLOPS pilots at local GA airports or look for contacts in your home city. Networking counts - don't give up...

 

[FracCapt]

Yeah, but at the end of the day, you're flying at 0.92 mach and leaving everyone else in your dust... Wave goodbye to the CRJs, 737s and 757s way below.

I hope you meant that in jest. The fact that so many people want to fly the Cit X just because it is the fastest bizjet in existance is certainly not a help to the pilots of NJA when it comes to negotiations for their new contract. I always have to laugh at the people that think they are cool because they fly the CX, or the DA2000, or a GV....they're pilots, plain and simple. Some get paid more than others. Some have more time than others. I could fly any airplane at Flight Options, but I have no desire to fly a GIV, Legacy, Challenger, etc., just because of the type. I care about 1) Schedule(pretty simple, we're all on the same sched here) and 2) Pay(to go to any airframe besides Hawker I would be an SIC, therefore a pay cut). If Flight Options offered to pay me 100k a year to fly a C172....I'd be all over it! Keep me flying(something), pay me well, and give me a good schedule...and I'll be a happy camper.

 

[AA717driver]

FracCapt--You broke the code. TC

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Just curious. A year later -- do you feel as though you made the right decision for you and your family?