Hawker insurance hurdle for a new pilot

[400A]

You might check back with Simuflite for your next training needs...their CJ3 sim in MMU is brand-spanking-new (like not even 100% certified yet) and they're trying to drum up business but their cost for CJ2+ training (Initial or Recurrent) after the first of the year is SUBSTANTIALLY less than FSI Wichita...like more than 1/3 less.

My FSI rep always matches anything Simuflite offers me. I have many friends in ICT from my Raytheon days so I enjoy going there. 750 sim is brand new in ICT as well.

 

[BoilerUP]

My FSI rep always matches anything Simuflite offers me.

Well if that's the case, your negotiation skills are better than mine :laugh:

I was very disappointed in FSI's efforts to earn our business.

 

[400A]

Well if that's the case, your negotiation skills are better than mine :laugh:

I was very disappointed in FSI's efforts to earn our business.

Been buying from the same rep for 18 years. Only trained other than them once. Taking him fishing does not hurt either....LOL

I was however, very upset about their pay upfront policy. I guess they got burned by some of the big departments shutting down. It was not that big a deal with the exception of the fact they told that 1 week prior to training.

 

[400A]

Well if that's the case, your negotiation skills are better than mine :laugh:

I was very disappointed in FSI's efforts to earn our business.

Been buying from the same rep for 18 years. Only trained other than them once. Taking him fishing does not hurt either....LOL

I was however, very upset about their pay upfront policy. I guess they got burned by some of the big departments shutting down. It was not that big a deal with the exception of the fact they told that 1 week prior to training.

 

[TimsKeeper]

40k? no

Again, if you pay 40k for a Hawker initial I still think your negotiating skills are poor.

First of all, he didn't mention Proline 21 so you are making assumptions based on your needs, not his.

Secondly he said Part 91, so even if he does have a Proline 21 airplane that does not mean he needs to take the type in a Proline 21 sim. If he didn't check around he might not know that taking a type in the 700 sim would be no different type than doing it in the brand-spankin new one at twice the cost.

 

[400A]

Again, if you pay 40k for a Hawker initial I still think your negotiating skills are poor.

First of all, he didn't mention Proline 21 so you are making assumptions based on your needs, not his.

Secondly he said Part 91, so even if he does have a Proline 21 airplane that does not mean he needs to take the type in a Proline 21 sim. If he didn't check around he might not know that taking a type in the 700 sim would be no different type than doing it in the brand-spankin new one at twice the cost.

If he did have proline 21 and he did what you are endorsing it would be nothing but dangerous. What does 91 or 135 have to do with training in the airplane you fly?

Sorry, I don't cut corners on training and have witnessed the result of those that do. You get what you pay for. Congrats man! I guess you are a far better negotiator than me. I have learned nothing in my 14 years of running flight departments.

I guess it means nothing that most insurance companies require that you train in the proline bird if that is what you are flying. Silly me. What was I thinking.:erm: Why not just pay an examiner on the side to sign off the PPE or the type. Yeah, Thats the ticket.

 

[TimsKeeper]

400a

Again, JStyle never mentioned anything about a specific Proline 21 requirement. Only you did because it's your specific situation. The Hawker type-rating covers a whole slew of different models; i've had the pleasure of flying new and old.

I do strongly disagree with you stating there is anything dangerous about typing in a non-proline 21 simulator and receiving differences (ground at the simcenter or in-house) to meet insurance requirements. It's cheesy but there is nothing unsafe about it. With that said, I could understand an insurance company requiring the specific-training., however I would bet more companies than not would be able to negotiate alternative training than a specific simulator.

I was typed in the HS-125 about 5 years ago and the cost was under $20k at the time with company discounts. It's nice that your company pays for the extras...not every company does; that doesn't make it dangerous.

 

[TimsKeeper]

..

You can have 40 years of running flight departments; that's really not the point. If you can have the latest and greatest training approved wonderful, but you can get as legally qualified for half the price if you need to. Personally, I'd rather do it your way...but it is what it is sometimes.

If you think this type of training is "cutting corners" you have been working at the right companies..don't leave. However, this isn't even close to being a "dangerous" issue in my mind. Ddifferences training happens for many different type-ratings, this is no different.

 

[BoilerUP]

Add me to the camp that doesn't think it'd be real smart to get trained in a Honeywell 800A sim if you will be flying a PL21-equipped 800XP-900XP...especially if you don't have any Collins experience before.

I would not have wanted to go to Simcom and get my CE525s rating in their CitationJet simulator (as an example) then turn around and try to fly a PL21/FMS-3000 equipped CJ3...sure its the same type rating, but the airplanes are quite a bit different.

Legal? Yes. Safe & Prudent operation? Not really...

 

[400A]

I was typed in the HS-125 about 5 years ago and the cost was under $20k at the time with company discounts.

Not even in the same realm of pricing from 5 years ago.

I still think it would be dangerous to train in a 700 and fly a new generation Hawker. Way to many differences in my opinion. Having a particular type does not mean you are ready to go.

If a company can own a multi million dollar Jet, they can afford proper training. Improper systems operation and operational mistakes could be way more expensive than saving a couple grand on training.

You are correct. He did not specify Pro line 21, which is what I trained on. With that said, I would not even consider going and taking a Honeywell airplane without a Honeywell veteran. I do not cut corners. Not on training, and not on maintenance. Enough said. It is obvious we are not going to agree not this.

 

[flynfr8]

FSI Houston also has a 900XP ProLine 21 sim as well.

 

[bizjet800]

If you pay 40K for Hawker initial ya need to work on your negotiating skills.

I second that, you should be able to get an initial type in the Hawker for around $15k.

 

[400A]

I second that, you should be able to get an initial type in the Hawker for around $15k.

Pure fantasy unless you are getting manufacturer or sentient 50% discount. I don't even know if you can to that at Simcom. Again, I train in what I fly. You do what you want.

 

[westwind driver]

I know it's a completely different aircraft, but just recently...

E135 (Legacy 600) type rating: $26k.

Why would a PL21 HS125 be more?

Raises the question does it not?

 

[BoilerUP]

Why would a PL21 HS125 be more?

No airline revenue to help subsidize simulator/program costs like the Legacy has?