Hawaiian

[igneousy2]

is it likely going to be negotiation item that the MEC wants to use up capital on? I doubt it.. there is no industry president for it... it would be VERY expensive to do. .

Actually there is. It wasn't that long ago that HA flew DHC-7's with pilots on the HA seniority list.

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Hawa...15904/L/&sid=d6f966bd362235cbe4578bd8223dea4d

I am actually surprised with you coming from AA that you would not want it kept in house. I was flying in the Northeast on 9/11 and I witnessed how fast a major with a wholy owned can switch the flying between the two. BOS-DCA, BOS-NYC, NYC-DCA all went from 15+ MD-80's a day to 20+ EMB-145's a day just about overnight. By the end of the year I don't think there were more than a handlful of mainline jets flying the BOS-NYC-Washinton cooridor. I am interested to hear your perspective on this issue.

 

[HA25]

Actually there is. It wasn't that long ago that HA flew DHC-7's with pilots on the HA seniority list.

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Hawa...15904/L/&sid=d6f966bd362235cbe4578bd8223dea4d

I am actually surprised with you coming from AA that you would not want it kept in house. I was flying in the Northeast on 9/11 and I witnessed how fast a major with a wholy owned can switch the flying between the two. BOS-DCA, BOS-NYC, NYC-DCA all went from 15+ MD-80's a day to 20+ EMB-145's a day just about overnight. By the end of the year I don't think there were more than a handlful of mainline jets flying the BOS-NYC-Washinton cooridor. I am interested to hear your perspective on this issue.

Oh. I would love to keep it in house. Just the current environment with the way scope is going and the fact that it was decades ago that mainline flew turbo prop, it's a huge uphill battle.

 

[Jim]

Would I rather see the ATR's on our list? yep... is it likely going to be negotiation item that the MEC wants to use up capital on? I doubt it.. there is no industry president for it... it would be VERY expensive to do. The company woud likely have to come to the pilots with the idea, not the other way around.

That is exactly what I said, the company told the union they might want to put them on our list.

 

[Dan Roman]

A big hurdle is that at the rate we are expanding, every time Hawaiian hired they would have to retrain new T prop pilots or pay them bypass pay. You can't operate them profitably if everyone is getting retrained every three months or is getting bypass A330 pay to fly the Tprop. May sound good, but it's simply not realistic. Ignousy is right, I flew the DHC -7. We didn't have the rapid movement than and Dhc-7 Captain paid about what the DC-9 F/O made. It's a very different dynamic now that we are paying much higher wages to the jets and growing much quicker.

 

[HA25]

That is exactly what I said, the company told the union they might want to put them on our list.

I would imagine this would require some kind of side letter for training, seat locks and pay at a minimum so it's about as complicated as setting up a wholly owned subsidiary and staffing a Part 119 certificate .. and likely as costly if you factor in realistic union demands for pay, work rules and benefits. As Dan said.. movement is rapid and training bottle necks can occur easily. The class ahead of my class was awarded 717, and on the last bid I saw (some 4 months after they got hired) pretty much the entire class is now going to the A330... In my class, I'm the only one right now making the move, but that's because several others chose not to..

I honestly think management is going to contract out the flying, put the airplanes on the certificate of yet-to-be-named airline and operate that way... much like Delta did with ASA for a while.

 

[BentOver]

Just tossing ideas out there...

If they decide to seperate the lists...........What about either HA starting another 121 certificate/wholly owned, creating a pay scale that could be somewhat better than the typical regionals, and making a sort of flow through to Hawaiian? And maybe to get it started you allow current HA pilots (probably FO's) the ability to be a Captain over there for a certain amount of time.(or hire guys who are qualified to go direct entry Captain) You'd have to make it worth while because second year FO pay jumps so quickly that most wouldn't be able to justify it..

I know of atleast 5 Captain ready guys who are trying to get on with Hawaiian who would absolutely do it if it included a flow through to Hawaiian mainline.

If you make it all one list......... you could simply put a seat lock of some sort which may alleviate Tprop guys from jumping to another a/c quickly. I think we should look beyond the fact that it is a Tprop and consider it just another a/c Hawaiian operates.

To me contracting it out makes for a dicey situation if you get some second rate operator meal piecing an operation together out here. We definitely don't want to see another GO! operation with a Hawaiian Airlines name on the side.

As far as bypass pay..... Newhires who go to the 717 don't get bypass pay becasue junior new hires go directly to the 330. Why would a Tprop be different?

 

[BoeingBaller]

Anyone know how long it takes to get a call after completing phase 3?

 

[HA25]

Anyone know how long it takes to get a call after completing phase 3?

typically if they want to hire you, you get a 14 day notice from the next class date. I heard (not confirmed) that the class is slated to start Dec 27th.

 

[igneousy2]

We've went round & round on this forum before, so I probably shouldn't even fan the fire, but,

You really want to keep this in-house, no matter what you have to do...come to an agreement to keep this in-house. period. All of these other reasons are just short-sighted excuses in great times. Much more difficult things have been overcome. You really do not want to rely on promises on a piece of paper.

How about this, kind of the FEDEX model: You have two hiring streams, At the interview you state whether or not you want to be considered for the ATR. If you take the ATR you are seat locked for 3 years and will not be entitled to by-pass pay. If you do not take the ATR you will wait for a "jet" class and cannot be forced into a t/p. If you have less experience, waiting for a "jet" class could mean you are never selected because you are going up against the entire pool. Nobody would ever be forced into a t/p. FEDEX is currently doing this more-or-less with their China and Germany bases and United has something similar for Guam. (as far as the bases being all-volunteers)

You want to rely on a scope clause in your contract?! In the late 90's AA's scope was that AA regionals could only fly a total of 75 jets with language that protected AA pilots from any aircraft that was currently on or invisioned in the market. At the time the smallest jets invisioned were the CRJ and the ERJ's each with 50 seats, so in theory the "Eagles" could have RJ's but only 75 of them.

I'll give you a hint, the fact that there is 44 seat ERJ (EMB-140) demonstrates what I am talking about. Ask HA25 what the AA scope clause said when he left. (before or after bankruptcy, it doesn't matter). When I left it was only getting worse, and I have no reason to believe the trajectory changed.

Scope clauses don't go away, they fade away. Everything is going well right now but imagine it wasn't (and there will come a day when it won't be) and the company comes to the HA pilots and say you have two choices, A: preserves your scope, it requires us to close the Maui hub and retire 5 717's, or choice B, you grant us "this one exception" to your scope, you let the ATR's fly off-peak HNL-OGG, Total ASM's will be slightly lower than required, and we only have to retire 2 717's saving 3 airplanes worth of jobs.

What's it going to be? Obviously, the choice will be B. And every few years, a little bit here, a little bit there.

No matter what you do, how it's structured, there is going to be a group of pilots flying 5 ATR's to start, for low pay and minimal benefits when compared to HA mainline. There isn't anything any pilot/union can do about that.

The question thus becomes, do you want these 50 or so pilots, on the inside, working with you, with an interest in what is going on for all the pilots at HA because they to are HA pilots? Or, are these pilots on the outside, where you can only hope they will do the right thing. Are they going to have an interest in doing the right thing for the HA pilots when the time comes, or are they going to be acting against you with their own self-interest. Will HA-Express be gaining airplanes while HA is losing them?

The only thing worst than being furloughed is being furloughed and seeing hiring and quick upgrades at your airlines "other" airline.


All of the other major airlines have spent the better part of the last 20 years trying to put this regional scope problem "back in the barn", trying to claw back flying. This is truly a unique opportunity for HA pilots, I hope you don't let it pass you by.

 

[BentOver]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ABSOLUTELY^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

It's important not to "BE ABOVE" turbo prop flying. And most likely no pilot currently on HA's list would ever see an ATR.... Plus, the more pilots on the HA seniority list the more senior everyone will eventually be. (think furlough protection if things ever turn south again in this economy etc)

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