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Have you guys read this?

RJFlyer

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http://www.alpa.org/internet/news/2002news/nr02072.html

Release #02.72
August 19, 2002

ALPA Requests NMB Intervention in American Eagle Dispute

WASHINGTON, D.C.---The union representing pilots at the American Eagle carriers has asked the National Mediation Board to rule that an unresolved dispute exists between the union and Eagle management, opening the door for a federal mediator to be assigned and some provisions of the current contract to be renegotiated.

At issue is Eagle’s decision to transfer 14 of its Embraer 145 aircraft to another American Airlines feeder carrier that operates separately from the American Eagle group.

"This is distinctly contrary to the expectations that Eagle pilots had when we agreed to the current contract back in 1997. The two most important factors in our decision to accept that agreement were job security and career growth. Transferring our aircraft out of Eagle is in direct contradiction to those expectations and the contract we signed," said Capt. Herb Mark, chairman of the Eagle pilots’ Master Executive Council (MEC), a unit of the Air Line Pilots Association.

In a letter sent Aug. 19 to American Eagle management, Capt. Duane Woerth, president of ALPA, said "Rather than engage in brinksmanship over this issue, the Association takes its present action with the firm resolve of engaging the Carrier in discussions which result in an agreement satisfactory to the Carrier as well as Eagle pilots."

In calling for discussions mediated by the NMB, Woerth said that American Airlines management and the Allied Pilots Association, which represents American’s pilots, should be included in the talks. The letter included the option of having Eagle and American pilots share in the jobs retained by not transferring the aircraft.

ALPA has asked the NMB to rule this the type of dispute that would require an NMB mediator to intervene, essentially opening up new negotiations of the existing collective bargaining agreement. Lesser disputes are handled through an arbitration procedure spelled out by the Railway Labor Act and usually do not entail renegotiation of an existing labor contract.
See? ALPA is representing us RJ drivers. Or...wait...no...they're representing the American mainline pilots ("Woerth said that American Airlines management and the Allied Pilots Association, which represents American’s pilots, should be included in the talks. The letter included the option of having Eagle and American pilots share in the jobs retained by not transferring the aircraft"). Or wait...no... awww, I'm confused now. Who is represented by ALPA in this issue again? :rolleyes:

Can anyone say AA J4J? And American mainline isn't even ALPA...
 

surplus1

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RJ Flyer,

Would you like to take bets on how long it will be before you see the J4J snake slithering around the DAL property? What better way to put the DL boys in the -700?

A future APA/ALPA merger would be quite a feather in DW's cap. He and his lieutenants would sell their mothers for that. Eagle who?
 

EagleRJ

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"The letter included the option of having Eagle and American pilots share in the jobs retained by not transferring the aircraft"

This is old news. It's just a reiteration of APA's proposal to have all flying at AMR performed by pilots on the AA seniority list, so that would logically extend to jobs retained by keeping those 14 ERJs here. The Eagle pilots conditionally support the proposal, so I guess ALPA figured it wouldn't hurt to mention it in a press release. You can bet ALPA National is well aware of the audience they hold.

The big news here is the possibility this issue will be found to be a "major dispute" and will be heard by a federal mediator. I don't fully understand the implications of that, but it appears the Eagle pilots are finally getting some real help.
 

NYRANGERS

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Re: RJ Flyer,

surplus1 said:
Would you like to take bets on how long it will be before you see the J4J snake slithering around the DAL property? What better way to put the DL boys in the -700?

A future APA/ALPA merger would be quite a feather in DW's cap. He and his lieutenants would sell their mothers for that. Eagle who?
Surplus, please don't try to use this as an RJDC rally call. AS a furloughed Delta pilot, I don;'t believe in JFJ.

Try to rember that U mainline is going to 245 airplanes from many more than that. Its a sad time for aviation. Pilots with 13 years and more are getting furloughed from U. Try to show some compassion, you A-hole.

I am a Delta pilot and I wish to go back to the job I left. I don't want your job.

This is about the Express replacing mainline jobs. U is bleeding employees and their union is trying to place their pilots into jobs.
 

RJFlyer

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EagleRJ -
The Eagle pilots conditionally support the proposal
Under what conditions?

NYRangers - Who is "U mainline?" Are you talking about United? Because this is about AA. Anyway, I feel for you furloughed guys, I just saw this as rather 2-faced by ALPA. They are the Eagle pilots' representatives, not the AA pilots'. Their duty of representation is to Eagle pilots. I can see that there may be a need to coddle the AA pilots in order to get them to ease their scope, to allow Eagle to keep their airplanes. But it seems to me that ALPA is selling Eagle short, in an attempt to woo the AA pilots into the ALPA fold.

What is the Delta MEC doing to get you guys back into jobs? Are you guys trying to put together a proposal to get a 70+ seat RJ rate for mainline? I am genuinely curious, please don't read this as an attack. I haven't heard any news recently of any attempts to get you guys back flying again, and that seems it should be the main priority for your MEC.
 

NYRANGERS

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RJFlyer said:
EagleRJ -Under what conditions?


What is the Delta MEC doing to get you guys back into jobs? Are you guys trying to put together a proposal to get a 70+ seat RJ rate for mainline? I am genuinely curious, please don't read this as an attack. I haven't heard any news recently of any attempts to get you guys back flying again, and that seems it should be the main priority for your MEC.
I have not heard of any talk about getting 70 seat RJ's for the mainline. What I have heard is talk about a 100 seat aircraft. I think the company is trying to get our MEC to sign off on some scope relief and the "big item"........domestic code share. I don't think you will see much support for the JFJ idea at either of our airlines.

Take care and good luck.
 

surplus1

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Re: Re: RJ Flyer,

NYRANGERS said:

Surplus, please don't try to use this as an RJDC rally call. AS a furloughed Delta pilot, I don;'t believe in JFJ.
I'm sorry you're furloughed and hope you will be able to return to work very soon. I'm pleased to hear that you "don't" believe in J4J, but that statement appears to be inconsistent with the last paragraph of your post. Which is it?

Anything that bespeaks of unfair representation is a rallying call for the RJDC. That is what we oppose. Get used to it.

When ALPA and your MEC were in the process of negotiating away positions at my airline and imposing restrictions and limitations on my job and my future, we formally requested the right to participate in the "talks". Your management accepted. The President of ALPA denied our request in writing.

Now, there's a problem on the Eagle property that affects Eagle pilots. The same President of ALPA publicly invites the participation of the APA (which represents American's pilots). According to ALPA's press release, Woerth's letter " included the option of having Eagle and American pilots share in the jobs retained by not transferring the aircraft." (Emphasis added)

So, Comair and ASA are denied (by ALPA) the right to participate in talks at Delta that involve the transfer of CMR/ASA aircraft to Delta pilots and impose onerous restrictions on our growth and work. But APA pilots are "invited to participate" (by ALPA) and ALPA is proposing that AA pilots "share" in the jobs resulting from the retention of Eagle aircraft. What better example of unfair representation and double standard do you want? At Delta at least we were both represented by the same union.

Does ALPA have a responsibility to represent the interests of the Eagle pilots or the interests of the APA and American's pilots? Why don't YOU tell me which it is?

Sorry if you're not happy my friend but I will not shut up until this discrimination by ALPA comes to an end. No matter who doesn't like what I say.

Try to rember that U mainline is going to 245 airplanes from many more than that. Its a sad time for aviation. Pilots with 13 years and more are getting furloughed from U. Try to show some compassion, you A-hole.
Congratulations! I hope you feel better now that you've called me a name. You guys have a propensity for resorting to name calling when you lack the ability to articulate your views. Shallow.

Yes, its a sad time for the airline industry. Yes, I know that U may go to 245 aircraft or less. Yes, I know that pilots with 13 years or maybe more at U will be furloughed. Yes, I feel compassion.

Now, what else would you like me to do? Agree that they should be able to displace pilots at ALG or PDT with more than 15 years of service? Should I agree that they have a "right" to super seniority at the regional airlines? Should I be happy because a pilot with only 1 year of service at U may replace a pilot with 10 years of service at ALG? Do you want me to feel sorry for them because they will be paid more at the regional to do the very same job of the pilots they are going to displace? Where would you like my "compassion" to be directed?

When the pilots of rEAL were unemployed due to an effort to rid the industry of a predator that endagered ALL our careers, where was the "compassion" of the Delta pilot group? What effort did you make to help them find jobs? Answer = your Company hired two EAL Scabs and your MEC and your pilots made NO EFFORT to help the rEAL pilots. How much compassion did YOU show?

What compassion did the Delta MEC or Delta pilots show for the PanAm pilots that were given seniority numbers below pilots that were not even employed by DAL at the time, in your seniority "integration"? Where was your "compassion" then?

I have plenty of compassion for the furloughed U pilots buddy, but that does NOT include any right on their part to dispalce the pilots at other airlines or to gain super seniority and higher pay. So don't hold your breath for me to be compassionate about that. It is nothing more than coercion and prejudice on the part of the labor union (ALPA) that ALG/PDT/PSA pilots PAY to represent their interests and on the part of the UMEC or any U pilot that does that. It is wrong, it violates ALPA's DFR and the affected regional pilots should be doing everything legally possible to prevent it.

I am a Delta pilot and I wish to go back to the job I left. I don't want your job.
Glad to hear it and I'm happy for you. Hope you get to return soon. Whether you want my job or not, I have no intention of giving it to you. I'm a Comair pilot. Luckily, I haven't lost my job yet and I hope I won't. I'm also one of many Comair pilots who doesn't want your job either and couldn't care less about a number on your "list". So put that in your pipe and smoke it.

This is about the Express replacing mainline jobs. U is bleeding employees and their union is trying to place their pilots into jobs.
At U, the Express is not replacing mainline jobs. That is propaganda and mainline "spin" and I'm not gullible. The mainline pilots and their union which, in case you missed it, is also the union of the Express pilots, is trying to steal the Express jobs by coercing those pilots to relinquish their seniority and abrogate their contracts. What's more, they are doing it in an effort to compensate themselves, at the expense of others, for a circumstance that they themselves played a major role in creating. Dirty pool in its finest hour.

Whether you like it or whether you don't, calling me names isn't going to change it. The actions of ALPA and the UMEC violate ALPA's Duty of Fair Representation. And, that's the way it is.

Good luck to ya.
 

~~~^~~~

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Great post Surplus.

Why can't the mainline guys see the logic in your reasoning? Is the arrogance so pervasive that they do not understand it is not "ours" or "their" flying? What happened to the flying performed by Northeast, Western, Pan Am, or Ransome?

Legally, we know a revenue seat mile is a revenue seat mile. As long as ALPA promotes divisions within pilots who perform brand name flying, ALPA will continue to see the powerful hand of economics push the flying towards those pilots who provide the product at the most competitive rates. (and there are cheaper pilots than you and me out there, by far)

Jets for jobs (giving mainline pilots my seniority while I lose my job) still does not address the mainline pilots' problem with watching their postion erode. When will they understand that the harm they cause us, eventually harms them? Junior mainline pilots share our problems - worse they have already lost jobs as a result of ALPA's misguided scope agenda. When will they start to understand we are in this together - is it arrogance, stupidity, or what? I just do not comprehend what they could be thinking.

With jets for my job, ALPA is running the risk of so marginalizing small jets pilots that the union is percieved as absolute evil. Then we stop seeing each other as pilots, or even professionals, but simply as foes to be conquered and destroyed. Maybe ALPA has seen my job that way since day one and we are just now figuring it out.

Thanks to the RJDC the Connection pilots are better organized and have the resources to defend against the coming war. I'd certainly prefer to resolve this by other means, but with the shells already falling around Ft. Sumter, it is only a matter of time until the battle of Atlanta.


____________


ALPA Apartied - One Level of discrimination
 
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AAflyer

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First, let's dispell the all gossip. There is no plan for J4J at AA. Sometimes this board gets a little carried away, and it is amazing that the SAME people fuel the fire. This is not DAL,UAL,CAL,NWA,AWA, so anyone who flies for those companies please stop saying what you heard from your buddy ,or what AMR will probably do, or start gossip,( AMR is looking for 100 seat jets. BACK IT UP, if you have proof, have we ordered them, do we have options for them? Or did someone hear something from someone in the school house who overheard someone else.)

What is this "Days of our Lives"????

Fact.
APA is meeting with AMR this friday.

Fact
It is about Domestic code share

Fact
Many members of the BOD and membership are not happy how the president set this meeting up.

Fact
Yes we asked to have all 70 seat flying performed on behalf of AA pilots (and to you that use the mantra that this is not mainline flying, your right, it is not YOUR flying either it is the companies to do as they wish. To fly a SF340 or B777.

Fact
MANY at AA would like to see AA and AE merged. Then all flying is performed on behalf of AA pilots, then we work to raise the bar on Eagle rates, then there is no loss of job protection!!

FOR THE LAST TIME WE NEED UNITY. And Surplus you do not seem to instill that, Every one of your posts insults and belittles mainline pilots, grow up! Yes you are entitled to your opinion, but since it is the same opinion of all the time we get your point. Since I am mainline I am an overpaid dirtbag who wants your seat, your job, your everything. Get real. I flew for the regionals, and charters, and frieght companies. There are many that worked our way up, that have not forgotten our roots.

Until we come together this is going to get worse, why is that so hard to see, everybody is so busy pointing fingers. We call ourselves professionals. Ya right.....


In Unity,

AAflyer
 

~~~^~~~

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AA Flyer - good post too. However, we have been reading ALPA code for many years now. The union writes that it raises the house by jacking one corner at a time. US Air was the last corner, then AA, then it comes to my corner.

ALPA's statement was clear. Duane would like to see the jets returned to AMR and flown by AA displaced pilots. That is J4J - in a nutshell.

Duane would give anything to get the AA pilots back in ALPA. But of course, this issue is a lot like crew compliment and isn't that how we got separated in the first place?
 

AAflyer

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I don't see us going to ALPA anytime soon ,but if that is true (do you know where I can find that letter). It sounds like a carrot to dangle infront of APA pilots to lure them into the dysfunctional ALPA. Screwing over my regional brothers regardless of which union they are in is pathetic. I wouldn't sign up for anything.

What we make of this business is the legacy we leave to the next generation. It will be a cold day in He11 before I help destroy this business for them!!

AAflyer
 
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eaglefly

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To my knowledge, the "dispute" is in regard to the 14 jets ONLY that AMR is transferring (however, they've dressed it up as a "sale") to an "alter-ego" carrier.

Rather than see these 14 A/C go to an alter-ego carrier. The Eagle MEC would rather see an agreement that would please all parties concerned (Eagle ALPA, APA and AMR).

The Eagle MEC is not interested in any widespread J4J garbage. Won't happen.
It would involve roughly 140 pilot positions.

I agree that Duane is wasting his time if he thinks he can woo the AA pilots over. It does however seem to contradict his handling of the Delta/Comair/ASA situation.

BTW, Carty is warning of deeper mainline cuts in the near future.
 

surplus1

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AAflyer said:

FOR THE LAST TIME WE NEED UNITY. And Surplus you do not seem to instill that, Every one of your posts insults and belittles mainline pilots, grow up! Yes you are entitled to your opinion, but since it is the same opinion of all the time we get your point. Since I am mainline I am an overpaid dirtbag who wants your seat, your job, your everything. Get real. I flew for the regionals, and charters, and frieght companies. There are many that worked our way up, that have not forgotten our roots.
Thank you for your post and for sharing your perspective. I'm sorry if I come across to you as insulting or belittling mainline pilots. I do not see mainline pilots as being worthy of disparaging personal remarks and I try to avoid that (except when returning those niceities that have mainline pilots as the source. Then you get what you give). What I belittle is not your persons but your views. While you may not agree, I find those views to be self-agrandizing and supercilious, particularly with respect to the issues being discussed.

The fact is some of you are overpaid, but you're not dirtbags. You're just greedy to your own detriment and full of unwarranted arrogance. If that shoe fits, wear it. If it does not, then you are the exception among the "junior" mainline ranks rather than the rule and, I applaud you.

I admire the fact that you "worked your way up" and have not forgotten. You flew for the regionals, and charters and freight companies. So have I. By coincidence, I have also flown for a so-called major, in "heavy iron" and served as an international captain for 20 years before setting foot in my present "regional". I am not a stranger to your world or to mine. None of that entitles me to special treatment or privilege. None of it makes me superior to my regional brothers and none of it makes me ameanable to being talked down to or disparaged by so-called mainline pilots, many of whom are very junior airmen that come across to me as egotistic kids. Spoiled brats atypical of the generation that spawned them. Strangely, I don't have these problems with the senior mainline pilots. Wonder why that is? Perhaps you really don't "get my point" at all.

One thing that my backgound does give me is considerable insight into the internal workings of my union and the attitudes of the people that run it. I know them all and have known most of their predecessors for many years. I'm no stranger to their thinking or their agendas. While I may well need to "grow up" as you put it, I'm not the kid running his mouth that you appear to think I might be. Thanks to the passing of time, I have learned all too well the difference between sinner and saint. Few of the latter reside or work in the DC area nor the offices of the majore MECs.

Your call for unity is a noble and worthy call. I would willingly share that objective and answer the call. Unfortunately I must ask, at what cost? At whose expense? When our "unity" equates to my demise, I question the motivation of him that calls for unity. Do remember that our Republic once had a similar call for "unity", but it took a civil war to achieve it. I pray we can avoid repeating that history, but I fear that the current "agenda" may well preclude it.

Until we come together this is going to get worse, why is that so hard to see, everybody is so busy pointing fingers. We call ourselves professionals. Ya right.....
I agree with your basic premise. I've said that repeatedly, so you're more or less preaching to the choir. Change the word "professionals" to "brothers" and you and I will be on the same page.

"Union" is to me more than just a word or a vehicle to enhance the goals of some at the expense of others. When we practice what we preach, I'll be on board. Until then, the struggle for equity will continue.

Regards,
Surplus1
 

AAflyer

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surplus,


"brothers"!!!!!

You do have alot on the ball, I think with a little effort this can be made to work to ALL our benefits.

You will catch a lot more flies with honey. You have the knowledge, the experience and the voice to articulate your information. If you do it a little nicer you will be HEARD by a great many more..

In Unity,

AAflyer
 

surplus1

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AAflyer said:
surplus,

"brothers"!!!!!

You do have alot on the ball, I think with a little effort this can be made to work to ALL our benefits.

You will catch a lot more flies with honey. You have the knowledge, the experience and the voice to articulate your information. If you do it a little nicer you will be HEARD by a great many more..

In Unity,

AAflyer
AAflyer,

You are very right about catching more flies with honey. You'll have to forgive me if my frustration shows from time to time. I've been using the "honey" approach with ALPA's big guns for 13 of the 14 years I've been a "regional" airline pilot. The only thing that got sticky were my own fingers. Those flies are wiley buggers. Sometimes it takes a swatter to catch certain flies.

Time is short for me. Retirment from this is knocking on the door. I'd like to see my union restored to its intended purpose before I hang it up for good. Because of this, I tend to be impatient sometimes. I apologize if that comes across as offensive. This problem could be solved with the line pilots. It's the confounded politicians at the National and MEC level that keep things from happening. They're afraid they may lose some power. I'm afraid that WE will lose the union, if we don't straigten this out. We made the mess and we have to solve it. It shouldn't be about "mainline" pilots and "regional" pilots. It should just be about airline pilots. That's what we ALL are.

Trust me when I say that many HEAR me, the problem is that few LISTEN, not just to me but to anyone but themselves. It's not really because I'm abrasive, it's mostly because I won't stay "in my place" and kiss the appropriate posteriors. People in power don't like that and I have grown sick of being "politically correct".

I'll keep trying till the clock runs out. If I don't make it, I hope young people like you will pick up the ball and go on to score. You've convinced me your head's in the right place.

Ironically, if you've read the history of your own union and why it separated from ALPA you may understand the similarities in the current situation. Back when that happened American had about the same number of pilots that my little airline has today.

Fly safe,
Surplus1
 

AAflyer

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Surplus1,

thanks, I am actually reading the Fly the Line II. I understand your frustration. I see why you have taken that approach.

I and many others understand what is REALLY going on, and would have no problem defending it and you. LIke I read in Flying the Line, this is not just our career, we need to leave it a better place for the next generation. Thanks for responding, and Good
Luck.

Take Care,
AAflyer
 
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