H&K Pilot Offer Expired

[BoilerUP]

<rant on>

AUTOLOADING HANDGUNS DO NOT USE 'CLIPS' - THEY USE ***MAGAZINES***

<rant off>

I have a Sig 229 .40 which is a fantastic weapon and quite accurate, but I carry a G19 because it is substantially lighter and cheaper to shoot than the .40 so I am more proficient with it.

Many folks like the new Springfield XDs, but if you wanna talk about ugly Glock knockoffs, the story begins and ends with these abominations. Springfield should have stuck to the 1911 as their autoloader of choice...

 

[Lynxman]

Get a .357 Sig barrel for your 229 Boiler and really wake it up.

 

[the palm]

The program expired due to lack of supply. I purchased all the HK's for my family and friends this Christmas.

 

[rjacobs]

Get a .357 Sig barrel for your 229 Boiler and really wake it up.

So get something that has marginally better ballistics than a 9mm+p and costs twice as much.

Or on the other hand, get something that has worse ballistics than a .40 and costs twice as much.

No thanks, ill stick with main stream rounds.

 

[rjacobs]

I guess I still dont get why guys go so gaga over this program. The USP .40 is an old gun(almost 20 years old). There are much newer guns(including newer H&K's like the P30) that are better as well as cheaper than the USP. I am an avid shooter, but have never considered picking up the USP because of these things. I could almost have 2 glocks or 2 M&P's for the price of the USP. If I was buying an H&K right now it would be a P30 LEM V2 or a P2000 V3.

 

[BoilerUP]

You really can't compare a Glock with the USP Compact; its like a Chevy vs. a BMW in terms of build quality. A Chevy will get you point A to B, but the BMW has fine lines, is well balanced, and just RUNS.

Sig vs. HK is a better, more realistic argument and that's where HK loses in a head-to-head, though its still a fine weapon.

As for "ballistics"...I'll just copy a post I made on thehighroad.org a while back:

Using Remington Golden Saber ballistics, the 124gr 9mm Luger leaves the muzzle at 1125fps with 349 ft/lb energy, dropping to 293 ft/lb at 50 yards. The same bullet in a +P loading gives you 1180fps with 384 ft/lb energy at the muzzle, falling to 327 ft/lb at 50 yards.

The 165gr Golden Saber .40SW leaves the muzzle at 1150fps, with 485ft/lb of energy, falling to 396 at 50 yards.

When compared to the 9mm +P, the 40SW leaves the muzzle 2.6% slower but has 26% more energy at the muzzle and 21% more energy at 50 yards. I'm no expert, but I'd say a 20% increase in energy is a fair bit more than "barely more powerful".

As for the .357 SIG...a 125gr Federal Hydra-Shok loading leaves the muzzle @ 1350fps & 506 ft/lb energy, with energy falling to 395ft/lb at 50yd. Given how much lighter the bullet is and how much higher the muzzle velocity is, I'd say it compares pretty favorably with the "short and wimpy"...

 

[the palm]

You really can't compare a Glock with the USP Compact; its like a Chevy vs. a BMW in terms of build quality. A Chevy will get you point A to B, but the BMW has fine lines, is well balanced, and just RUNS.

Sig vs. HK is a better, more realistic argument and that's where HK loses in a head-to-head, though its still a fine weapon.

As for "ballistics"...I'll just copy a post I made on thehighroad.org a while back:



As for the .357 SIG...a 125gr Federal Hydra-Shok loading leaves the muzzle @ 1350fps & 506 ft/lb energy, with energy falling to 395ft/lb at 50yd. Given how much lighter the bullet is and how much higher the muzzle velocity is, I'd say it compares pretty favorably with the "short and wimpy"...

This reminds me of the ESPN commercial where the jocks are talking about baseball stats and their subsequent effect on their fantasy league. The nerds walk by, overhear the conversation and call the jocks "Nerds." Priceless.

 

[Lynxman]

The fact is the .357 SIG wins hands down in ballistics and is less prone to FTF due to it's bottleneck design. For me I've also noticed better accuracy I don't know anyone others take on that though. The arguement of worse ballistics is ignorant if you can't afford the round then fine, but don't say it's a worse design.

 

[rjacobs]

The fact is the .357 SIG wins hands down in ballistics and is less prone to FTF due to it's bottleneck design. For me I've also noticed better accuracy I don't know anyone others take on that though. The arguement of worse ballistics is ignorant if you can't afford the round then fine, but don't say it's a worse design.

Im going to trust Doc Roberts and Doc Fakler when they say .357 sig is an inferior round. Bullet setback is a very common issue with the .357 sig round as well.

 

[BoilerUP]

Setback might have been an issue 15 years ago when the round was first commercially available, but its not an issue with current ammunition. That's like telling someone "You shouldn't shoot reloaded 40s in Glocks" because of a few incidents that happened a decade-plus ago.

As far as "inferior round" goes...tell that to the Secret Service & Federal Air Marshals (of note), along to the dozens of other local/state/federal law enforcement agencies that issue the .357 SIG to their officers instead of the 9mm or 40SW.

 

[rjacobs]

Setback might have been an issue 15 years ago when the round was first commercially available, but its not an issue with current ammunition. That's like telling someone "You shouldn't shoot reloaded 40s in Glocks" because of a few incidents that happened a decade-plus ago.

As far as "inferior round" goes...tell that to the Secret Service & Federal Air Marshals (of note), along to the dozens of other local/state/federal law enforcement agencies that issue the .357 SIG to their officers instead of the 9mm or 40SW.

Just because some government agency is issued something doesnt mean its a good round. Why do you think Glock has so may LEO contracts? Its not because they produced the best gun, but because when you buy the gun they throw in a couple years worth of training ammo as well as a ******************** ton of extra mags, new holsters for everybody, armorers school, etc... Its not limited to only Glock doing that, but they are the most famous for "buying" contracts. Same for a certain caliber of ammo be that 9mm, .40 or .45.

im still going to trust Doc Roberts(him and Doc F are the two most well known ballistics experts at least in the USA of not the world) when he says it is not the best choice out there. His very well known "acceptable pistol duty ammo" threads on AR15.com, M4Carbine, and where ever else he is an active poster, do not even mention .357 Sig.
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887

 

[relief tube]

good luck. that offer was around for over a year.

 

[JettBoii]

Your not shooting competition so the fine details do not matter; unless your a junkie like most of us. You need a good pistol with some great training, most CHL courses provide that. There are many places affiliated with gun ranges that even teach a modified tactical class to improve upon what you have learned. They teach you non dominant hand shooting, tight quarters, delaing with a cartridge jam..etc. Well worth the money. A well placed shot from a 9MM, 40, 357...etc will incapacitate your threat. If it doesn't then shoot again.

 

[NoJoy]

This thread is one of the more funny ones I have read in a while. (sigh) Anyway go to http://Doubletapammo.com for some of the best ballistics around for the $ on your fave 9mm,10mm,357sig,40,45,38Super, ect.

 

[crj567]

<rant on>

AUTOLOADING HANDGUNS DO NOT USE 'CLIPS' - THEY USE ***MAGAZINES***

<rant off>

.

BoilerUp is being a fool. Marys like him don't merely 'suck,' they ***CHUG GENTLEMAN JUICE.***

 

[Lynxman]

Just because some government agency is issued something doesnt mean its a good round. Why do you think Glock has so may LEO contracts? Its not because they produced the best gun, but because when you buy the gun they throw in a couple years worth of training ammo as well as a ******************** ton of extra mags, new holsters for everybody, armorers school, etc... Its not limited to only Glock doing that, but they are the most famous for "buying" contracts. Same for a certain caliber of ammo be that 9mm, .40 or .45.

im still going to trust Doc Roberts(him and Doc F are the two most well known ballistics experts at least in the USA of not the world) when he says it is not the best choice out there. His very well known "acceptable pistol duty ammo" threads on AR15.com, M4Carbine, and where ever else he is an active poster, do not even mention .357 Sig.
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887

I'm not going to listen to someone spin their opinion on something. The numbers talk the ballistics on the Sig are better plain and simple.

Here is the numbers:
.357 Sig Speer Gold Dot

1385 FPS 532ft/lb Energy .68 expansion 16.5 penetration (changes depending on rounds)

.45 Remington Golden Saber JHP

875 FPS 391 ft/lb Energy .75 in expansion 14.3 Penetration (changes depending on rounds)

How's that for the supposed man stopper .45? All I see it win in is expansion. Sure most folks will go down in one shot, but what if someone is hopped on drugs and has a gun of their own. Well I don't want to have to fire again. The point is the first round needs to matter.

 

[rjacobs]

I'm not going to listen to someone spin their opinion on something. The numbers talk the ballistics on the Sig are better plain and simple.

Here is the numbers:
.357 Sig Speer Gold Dot

1385 FPS 532ft/lb Energy .68 expansion 16.5 penetration (changes depending on rounds)

.45 Remington Golden Saber JHP

875 FPS 391 ft/lb Energy .75 in expansion 14.3 Penetration (changes depending on rounds)

How's that for the supposed man stopper .45? All I see it win in is expansion. Sure most folks will go down in one shot, but what if someone is hopped on drugs and has a gun of their own. Well I don't want to have to fire again. The point is the first round needs to matter.

If you are going to try to spin this your way at least use two comparable bullets. If you are going to quote 357 sig numbers use a comparable round like a 9mm 124g+p or a 155g .40. The .45 is not a comparable round to a 357 sig and I have never seen it compete against it. I am not a fan of .45 and have never stated as such.

Also might want to get some numbers from some modern ammo, golden sabers are old as ********************.

 

[Lynxman]

9mm is a joke what is there to compare how completely inferior it is? Same with the .40 I'm not impressed. The only thing worthy of a comparison is the .45.

 

[Lynxman]

9mm +p+ Federal Hydra Shok:

1220 FPS 410ft/lb energy .67 expansion 13.4 penetration

In all categories it's still worse than the Sig round.

.40 Federal Hydrashok

1140 FPS 447ft/lb energy .68 expansion 13.3 penetration

Once again the SIG is still inferior?

 

[rjacobs]

Why do you not read the thread i posted a bit earlier from m4carbine that is written by Doc Roberts. ******************** send him an email and ask him why he thinks .357 sig is an inferior round. He is in no way trying "spin" this argument to "win" some internet pissing match.

I can argue numbers with you all day long, but at the end of the day its what that bullet does when it enters something that makes the difference.

I dont care what the ballistics numbers are when you can see in the thread I linked to that the ballistics gel testing showed every round, except the 124g 9mm(may or may not be a +p round) penetrated as far or farther than the 357 sig.

Penetration and reliable expansion are the ONLY thing that matter in self defense ammo.

If you want to disregard what a ballistics expert says, fine, it just shows your ignorance and lack of education on the topic. I think I will follow the advice of the experts since I dont have time or money to ballistics test tons of rounds to see what the best is.

I am done with the ignorance in this thread.