Gulfstream, Flexjet enter into agreement for 50 aircraft!

[gutshotdraw]

I can't for the life of me understand why we ordered the 605. I think the 350 was a good buy but the 605? I guess that's why I'm just a line pilot. As others have said, I too wouldn't be surprised if Harry cancels this and points at NJASAP.

Count on it...

 

[gutshotdraw]

Will it actually do it at that speed? I saw where the G400/500 takes a huge penalty on range at that speed. What does a Global cruise at?

The 650 will do over 5000 nm at .92 and 7000 nm at .85. Easily.

Fuel specifics on the new Gulfstreams are not available yet since certification is just getting underway. Gulfstreams have always met or exceeded pre-production performance guarantees. The Global? Not so much.

 

[Rubber Ducky]

How hard was it to switch to 4 fleet types for operational efficiency? With the wave of a wand... How many fleet types now?

 

[BlueNose]

Maybe a deal sweetener...you have become Bombardier's new Flexjet.

Blame Canada!

 

[X-rated]

The 650 will do over 5000 nm at .92 and 7000 nm at .85. Easily.

Fuel specifics on the new Gulfstreams are not available yet since certification is just getting underway. Gulfstreams have always met or exceeded pre-production performance guarantees. The Global? Not so much.

The numbers Gulfstream talks about now are 7000nm at M.85 and 6000 at M.90. Both of those should be achievable or even exceeded with a little effort. However, I'm a bit skeptical about 5000nm at M.92. This plane has a preverbal wall between .90 and .91. Even if it is possible, 1000nm is already a huge range penalty for .02 mach.

We cruise the G650 at M.90 almost everywhere we go. We used to cruise the Global at M.85 all the time. If you need to really stretch the range, it's .85 in the 650 and .83-.82 in the Global. We are doing the G650ER mod not because we'll ever fly 7500nm, but because we should be able to go 6400nm at M.90.

 

[gutshotdraw]

The numbers Gulfstream talks about now are 7000nm at M.85 and 6000 at M.90. Both of those should be achievable or even exceeded with a little effort. However, I'm a bit skeptical about 5000nm at M.92. This plane has a preverbal wall between .90 and .91. Even if it is possible, 1000nm is already a huge range penalty for .02 mach.

We cruise the G650 at M.90 almost everywhere we go. We used to cruise the Global at M.85 all the time. If you need to really stretch the range, it's .85 in the 650 and .83-.82 in the Global. We are doing the G650ER mod not because we'll ever fly 7500nm, but because we should be able to go 6400nm at M.90.

All good info. The 650 ER mod presents an interesting conundrum that I can't answer. Will the increase in Max TOGW to 104K lbs. exclude you from Teterboro? Or will the airplane be "grandfathered" via the originally certified weight being under 100K? I'm also told there is room in the wing for even MORE fuel but they are still analyzing the structural consequences.

And meanwhile, now that you have flown both for a while, what are your thoughts on reliability, handling, and performance of the 650 vs. the Global?

 

[X-rated]

All good info. The 650 ER mod presents an interesting conundrum that I can't answer. Will the increase in Max TOGW to 104K lbs. exclude you from Teterboro? Or will the airplane be "grandfathered" via the originally certified weight being under 100K? I'm also told there is room in the wing for even MORE fuel but they are still analyzing the structural consequences.

And meanwhile, now that you have flown both for a while, what are your thoughts on reliability, handling, and performance of the 650 vs. the Global?

As long as you operate below 100K, TEB has no problem with the higher certification weight. I confirmed that with both Gulfstream and TEB. However, the ER will have a reversible placard to allow both max operating weights. It's still unclear to me whether a mechanic will have to make a logbook entry to change between weights or not. Similarly, ASC-026 restricts the G650 to 74,900 lbs should an operator need that flexibility.

I'll be as kind as I possibly can and say the G650's reliability has been poor. We've canceled far more trips in the past 6 months than I had previously in 15 years flying business jets. My boss has been stranded and had to charter on at least 6 occasions because we were AOG. Several other trips have been delayed, and the plane has constantly lived in service centers. I'm pretty sure we've never flown a leg that didn't result in multiple squawks. In contrast, during the entire 4 1/2 years in the Global, we missed one trip because of a mechanical problem. That said, Gulfstream is now making a serious effort to help us get this thing settled down. The support is very impressive, and I have no doubt someday this will be a great plane. Sadly, that day is not today.

In my opinion, the Global's interior is far superior in almost every way. It's roomier, it doesn't waste space with huge, loud and hot avionics cabinets, and the fit and finish and overall quality is much better. To be fair, I'd probably like it quite a bit better if things would stop failing every flight. In the cockpit, I hate all of the old school unnecessary button pushing and ridiculously long checklists. You might disagree, since I understand much of it pays homage to Gulfstream's going all the way back to the III. The Global's cockpit is much simpler and it is very quiet. We always took our headsets off in cruise in the Global; we pretty much have to keep the headsets on the entire flight in the 650. You may have heard there is an insane amount of airflow in the 650 cockpits that makes long legs pretty uncomfortable. I know one operator flies with one pack turned off to reduce the hurricane force winds in the cockpit.

There are plenty of good things about the G650 too. The trailing link gear and huge wings make for very soft landings. The performance is simply stunning in just about every way. We climb like a rocket ship at 320 transitioning to M.90. It goes fast and far, and it does it comfortably and efficiently. The cockpit seats are more comfortable on long legs than the old Global seats, (I've heard the new Global seats are good too) and the Planeview II is a huge step up from the old Primus 2000. (I imagine the Vision cockpit is good too) It's a cool plane with a great presence. I sincerely hope the boss doesn't give up on it before we have a chance to work out the kinks.

I went to recurrent last month, and I was a little surprised to hear we are not at all unique though we are definitely having more problems than most.

 

[greygoose]

Heard from a buddy that flew ricci the other day. Supposedly Ricci was bragging that the Gulf streams were going to Flex but will be flown by flops pilots that will go over to flex. All furloughed are being called back to replace the ones that head to flex. Had reference to something about 70 pilots is what they want to head over.

 

[greygoose]

If true all looks like a way for him to dwindle the union down and vote it out.

 

[V1 Rotate]

Heard from a buddy that flew ricci the other day. Supposedly Ricci was bragging that the Gulf streams were going to Flex but will be flown by flops pilots that will go over to flex. All furloughed are being called back to replace the ones that head to flex. Had reference to something about 70 pilots is what they want to head over.

Sixty-eight FLOPs pilots have applied to jump ship here to Flex. Of the first half that have been called only four have accepted positions. They start in a couple of weeks on the 45. I am curious as to why so many would apply and then retract??? I, too, am fearful that FLOPs transfers, upon being hired, will go straight to the Gulfstreams. That's how Flex has always hired people. Wherever the current openings are, that's where the new guys go. We've never been offered the opportunity to change aircraft except for when they needed a few guys here and there. I know there are additional costs involved but money doesn't seem to be a factor now a days. Always been one of my gripes.

 

[FRACTRASH]

What's the mighty IBT doing about this? That's a non Union pilot group making out pretty damn good. Congratulation Flex pilots. Better look out for the evil management types. This just proves my point, IBT is obsolete!

 

[slowtation capt]

I, too, am fearful that FLOPs transfers, upon being hired, will go straight to the Gulfstreams. That's how Flex has always hired people.

Why be fearful now? If that's the Flex practice and way of doing things, why does it make a difference if it's a Flops transfer or a new hire off the street?

 

[gutshotdraw]

As long as you operate below 100K, TEB has no problem with the higher certification weight. I confirmed that with both Gulfstream and TEB. However, the ER will have a reversible placard to allow both max operating weights. It's still unclear to me whether a mechanic will have to make a logbook entry to change between weights or not. Similarly, ASC-026 restricts the G650 to 74,900 lbs should an operator need that flexibility.

I'll be as kind as I possibly can and say the G650's reliability has been poor. We've canceled far more trips in the past 6 months than I had previously in 15 years flying business jets. My boss has been stranded and had to charter on at least 6 occasions because we were AOG. Several other trips have been delayed, and the plane has constantly lived in service centers. I'm pretty sure we've never flown a leg that didn't result in multiple squawks. In contrast, during the entire 4 1/2 years in the Global, we missed one trip because of a mechanical problem. That said, Gulfstream is now making a serious effort to help us get this thing settled down. The support is very impressive, and I have no doubt someday this will be a great plane. Sadly, that day is not today.

In my opinion, the Global's interior is far superior in almost every way. It's roomier, it doesn't waste space with huge, loud and hot avionics cabinets, and the fit and finish and overall quality is much better. To be fair, I'd probably like it quite a bit better if things would stop failing every flight. In the cockpit, I hate all of the old school unnecessary button pushing and ridiculously long checklists. You might disagree, since I understand much of it pays homage to Gulfstream's going all the way back to the III. The Global's cockpit is much simpler and it is very quiet. We always took our headsets off in cruise in the Global; we pretty much have to keep the headsets on the entire flight in the 650. You may have heard there is an insane amount of airflow in the 650 cockpits that makes long legs pretty uncomfortable. I know one operator flies with one pack turned off to reduce the hurricane force winds in the cockpit.

There are plenty of good things about the G650 too. The trailing link gear and huge wings make for very soft landings. The performance is simply stunning in just about every way. We climb like a rocket ship at 320 transitioning to M.90. It goes fast and far, and it does it comfortably and efficiently. The cockpit seats are more comfortable on long legs than the old Global seats, (I've heard the new Global seats are good too) and the Planeview II is a huge step up from the old Primus 2000. (I imagine the Vision cockpit is good too) It's a cool plane with a great presence. I sincerely hope the boss doesn't give up on it before we have a chance to work out the kinks.

I went to recurrent last month, and I was a little surprised to hear we are not at all unique though we are definitely having more problems than most.

Interesting info. I hope it's just teething pains of a new airframe. Took a little while to iron out the bugs in the 550 and 450 when they first started up (Global as well, for that matter).

Hadn't heard about the cockpit noise issues. A good friend just finished 650 school and I'm anxious to hear his thoughts one he gets a little time in the airplane. I'm half deaf already since I spend all my time around airplanes or guns so I'd be using the Bose/Ufly setup even if I were flying a glider.

I hear what you're saying about Gulfstream factory checklists. They have been largely written by lawyers instead of pilots. We're lucky that we have been able to excise much of the redundancy and stupidity from our checklists. Quite manageable now. And pushing buttons makes me feel like I'm doing something...

Gulfstream does an amazing job of supporting their product (well, as long as your doofus, idiotic, egotistical CEO doesn't pee in their Wheaties) so I hope they get your airplane to run like it should.

And look at the bright side: You don't have to go to Aspen OR Santa Monica....

 

[SDCFI]

Heard from a buddy that flew ricci the other day. Supposedly Ricci was bragging that the Gulf streams were going to Flex but will be flown by flops pilots that will go over to flex. All furloughed are being called back to replace the ones that head to flex. Had reference to something about 70 pilots is what they want to head over.

Why is it when KR tells a Flexjet crew something it's just misinformation, but when he talks to FO people it's gospel? Perhaps he tells everyone what they want to hear and then does whatever is best for the company (ie him) when the time comes.

Sounds like the G450 will be a Flexjet product, who knows what will be dedicated crewed anymore. The others (500, 650) will be "international add-ons" like the Globals and so available to both FJ and FO pilots.

If KR hates the union so much why is bending over backward to give FO pilots opportunities at FJ and in the large aircraft? You'd think he'd want to stick it to them by giving everything to FJ while FO stagnates. Who the hell knows at this point?

 

[X-rated]

Interesting info. I hope it's just teething pains of a new airframe. Took a little while to iron out the bugs in the 550 and 450 when they first started up (Global as well, for that matter).

Hadn't heard about the cockpit noise issues. A good friend just finished 650 school and I'm anxious to hear his thoughts one he gets a little time in the airplane. I'm half deaf already since I spend all my time around airplanes or guns so I'd be using the Bose/Ufly setup even if I were flying a glider.



And look at the bright side: You don't have to go to Aspen OR Santa Monica....

I think it is just teething pains, and I understand from a friend who supports operators with new deliveries that the planes rolling off the line today are night and day better and more reliable than the early serial numbers. Also, I've talked to several operators that had a bunch of problems early on that say their planes are now quite reliable. Our airplane sat for a while after initial delivery and we don't fly a lot, so it's taking us a bit longer to work through the issues.

Most of the noise comes from the airflow coming into the cockpit from the packs. Gulfstream is addressing that issue fleet wide and should have a fix soon. The good news is the cockpit cools off almost instantly. The next big noise contributors are the LEER and the REER because of all the inverters and cooling fans. Up in the cruise flight levels, the wind noise does not seem excessive even at M.90. I don't have the Ufly on my QC15s, but I'll try them in the cockpit to see if they are better than our Telex 850s. The 850s are fine though; I just like to take the headset off in cruise. Up in the 40s, the Global was almost silent.