Gulfstream Academy...

[Zekeflyer]

I have seen all the back and forth about Gulfstream and other "Bought seats to the Airlines schools". Is it really that bad? I am 25-yrs old, a college grad, and it seems like I can't escape the "dead" time in aviation where all airline bound pilots must either flight instruct, fly cargo or some other low paying flight job to build time for the airlines.
My question is then why is it bad to by-pass all these routes and enroll in a program that will clear the way to the airlines for you? Sure, you are "paying" for the seat, but you still have to produce in order to keep your job right? Couldn't your credentials speak for themselves after you've built up sufficient time?

 

[172driver]

You have no credentials after completing a program like that. Cargo, flight instructing, check flying, etc. may be low paying but it is challenging flying with lots of decision making and learning going on every time you strap in. Try it out for a while and then tell me it's 'dead' time.

Sure, you can learn as a SIC, but who's making the decisions? When you move on, interviewers will want to know if you know what to do if the stuff hits the fan.

 

[Lucky]

GS

And what is 250 hours of SIC going to get you? You say your TT is about 100 hours. well lets assume you have 300 TT by the time you go to GS. Then you pay them $23K for the 250 SIC and no ratings. I cant think of many decent airlines that will hire you with such low time. You only added 23k to your bill and came out no better then when you went in. the same money spent at an Academy can get you your CFI's and your hours. and God only knows how much time you could get at a local FBO with 23K

PFT'ers Flame on!

 

[Zekeflyer]

Gulfstream...

I have to admit, I am new to aviation (if my total time isn't any indication). Whta is SIC? P-F-T? and some of the other lingo that gets thrown around...maybe these are things I weill find out after instructing for a while(hahaha).
I am a chemical engineer, I have a good job with pretty good pay and benefits. what will I do for health insurance after I get my ratings and start instructing full time? I have considered instructing part-time but my job requires me to travel all over the world.
It would be pretty hard to Justify my position in my compnay if I suddenly couldn't go overseas for weeks or months at a time.
I have also heard that in the airlines unlike in Engineering and every other job out there, If you are going along and you loose your job or your company goes out of buisness, you can't get another job making the same kind of money you had before. You would have to start again as a first officer, at bottom of the pay scale and start up the salary ladder all over again. Is this true? All that time cvounts for nothing? This is pretty scary. what do y'all think?
I am trying to decide between a career in the airlines or a career in law. (I am already tired of engineering).

 

[de727ups]

Dead time...haha

"I can't escape the "dead" time in aviation"

What you call dead time is building experience in the career...something everyone who wants to be an airline pilot should do.

The problem with PFT is that those who chose that route are contributing to the race to see how low we will go as professional pilots. Some will go so low as to pay for a job. Some are willing to pay to sit in a seat that is normally an entry level regional job. What is to stop PFT from spreading to the majors...next thing you know Delta will want 50K to work there as an F/O.

When you got your first job as a chemical engineer, did you work for free? How would you like it if when you were looking for your first chemical engineering job, you found out that you had to work for free for six months if you wanted the job?

 

[bobbysamd]

Dead time

t seems like I can't escape the "dead" time in aviation where all airline bound pilots must either flight instruct, fly cargo or some other low paying flight job to build time for the airlines.

None of the examples that you listed is "dead" time at all. There is no "dead" time in aviation. You will learn something from each flight you take. You will learn something from every example you listed - and I'm talking strictly about various aspects of flying. You will learn what it means to deal with adversity, work with people, solve problems. Gain an appreciation for "live" time for which you built your career. Everything I mentioned will put you directly in line for the airlines.

Couldn't your credentials speak for themselves after you've built up sufficient time?

That goes to my point above. The long and short of paying-for-training is you don't need credentials. You just need money.

Let's be real. Despite what these outfits might claim, the only real "credential" you need is a big enough bank account to pay for the training. They may state minimum requirements to be "hired," but, I guarantee, you brandish a check for your P-F-T tuition and you will be "hired" forthwith.

And, therein, lies the evil of P-F-T. It devalues the value of experience and hard work. P-F-T demonstrates, again, that flying is primarily a rich man's/woman's game, and lets such people cut in line. I realize I've written that point many, many times before. Maybe to put it another way; how much experience do you have as a chemical engineer? How would you like it if some kid with the ink barely wet on his diploma got the next job on the ladder for which you've worked hard because he bought his way in? Betcha anything you wouldn't like it.

Hope that explains a few things.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

what is going to happen to you after the time you paid for is up? You don't seriously expect them to hire you as a paid pilot right after you just proved you would pay rather than get paid to do that job. Besides they have 2 other suckers in line ready to buy that job of yours right out from under you.

 

[Timebuilder]

I am 25-yrs old, a college grad, and it seems like I can't escape the "dead" time in aviation where all airline bound pilots must either flight instruct, fly cargo or some other low paying flight job to build time for the airlines.

Don't worry. I wasn't injured when I fell out of my chair. Glad I'm still young enough that I wasn't on the floor, calling out "I've fallen down, and I can't get up!!"

This "dead time" in aviation is where you learn the ropes and gain valuable experience by instructing, cargo flying, etc.

I hate to tell you this, but there is no "direct line to an avition job flying regional jets."

This isn't one of those jobs like medical or dental assiting where you spend six months training and then it's onward and upward. You spend YEARS here in preparation, then maybe you get a shot.

Reality check complete.

 

[350DRIVER]

what is going to happen to you after the time you paid for is up? You don't seriously expect them to hire you as a paid pilot right after you just proved you would pay rather than get paid to do that job. Besides they have 2 other suckers in line ready to buy that job of yours right out from under you.

The other two "suckers" will move in when his time is up in the 1900, he is then off to Pinnacle or one of the other very select few regionals that will take him. There is a reason why only a few regionals buy into this program, it would be quite interesting to know exactly how much of the money is switching hands from GIA to Pinnacle at this point... I would advise you to think twice about such a move since with the way the industry is present day there is absolutely no need to take a short cut that will have a major impact on your career..

It is a tad bothersome and also somewhat disturbing to see how these marketing departments continue to take advantage of these young and nieve applicants since they are not well informed at such an early point in this game.


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[bobbysamd]

Gulfstream to Pinnacle

The other two "suckers" will move in when his time is up in the 1900, he is then off to Pinnacle or one of the other very select few regionals that will take him . . . .

. . . if he is taken immediately, if at all.

What if Pinnacle et al have no openings? That means he might only be placed in a pool(s). And, how long are his pool rights? If that happens, will Gulfstream exert any effort on the sucker's part to place him elsewhere sooner? I heard of an instance where Gulfstream rehired a P-F-T grad, who had his CFI, to instruct in its ab initio school. Fair enough, on Gulfstream's part. But, undoubtedly, the grad must have been disappointed after Gulfstream told him told to expect, and sold him on, an airline job.

I feel a point about P-F-T that is not made clear is that hours earned come out of sequence. Non-P-F-Ters are ripe for the regionals after they've built at least 1200 total and 200 of multi PIC. I would submit that more competitive mins are 1500 total, 500 multi and an ATP. Gulfstream grads end their P-F-T tours with something like 500 total and 250 of 1900 SIC. (Those who enter with more total and/or multi time leave with higher amounts in those categories.) Those amounts still fall way short of mainstream regional hiring mins. So, to be qualified for mainstream regionals, how do they build that time? And, by the time they build that time, their Gulfstream 121 time may be stale, and very well may be discounted because of how it was obtained. Moreover, the regionals may have applicants with far more 121 time than Gulfstream applicants offer.

Once more, I cannot emphasize it enough, caveat emptor. All the P-F-T diatribes, tantrums and temperance lectures aside, P-F-T requires a significant outlay of money. As the motor oil commercial says, "you can pay now, or pay later."

 

[The_Russian]

I'm not sure how many times I am going to have to post this:

You are not guaranteed a position with any airline upon completion of the First Officer Program at GIA.

And I happen to know that CFI personally. He didn't get hired because he couldn't answer basic aeronautical questions in the interveiw that all the others could. There are not always good eggs in the basket.

And when it comes to money I can name, on more fingers than I have, CFI's that are 90,000 dollars in debt after FSI and cannot get any job flying. That includes instructor positions.

Lucky, it is impossible to be at GIA with 100 hrs total time. Also, the only time you can build at an FBO for the same price is in a single engine (152, 172, pa/28, AA5). It is wiser for me to invest my money into an aircraft that is more powerful and complex. I would have spent the same amount at Ari-Ben in Ft. Pierce FL to get the same amount of time in the Dutchess. Instead I'm getting BE1900 121 time.

 

[350DRIVER]

You are not guaranteed a position with any airline upon completion of the First Officer Program at GIA.

Honesty is good as long as it is not flawed, the above statement is just a tad deceptive and not overly completely true. I am a tad surprised that you would be saying this knowing that a select "few" money agreements are in place to take you guys, Pinnacle just to name one.. 90% of the 220 grads of the program were "given" jobs according to GIA'a marketing department upon completion of the first officer program. They also continue on to emphasize the "employment opportunities with GIA and its code share partners.

. . . if he is taken immediately, if at all.

Bobby, most are picked up by Pinnacle , this is pretty much a fact upon completion of the program. Now should Pinnacle go sour then this could be a problem since they do not have the luxury option of going to any other place at 500TT or so, the 250 hours of 1900 time really mean much at all at this point. This is problem, most are going on a hope and a prayer that Pinnacle continues to grow and hire these grads.... The games do end once they hit the line..

And when it comes to money I can name, on more fingers than I have, CFI's that are 90,000 dollars in debt after FSI and cannot get any job flying. That includes instructor positions.

Atleast they are "respected" by others in the industry, something that you will not be able to obtain. I have yet to meet others who had anything good to say about you guys and trust me nieve one that once you get up in the ranks it will only get much worse.

Lucky, it is impossible to be at GIA with 100 hrs total time. Also, the only time you can build at an FBO for the same price is in a single engine (152, 172, pa/28, AA5). It is wiser for me to invest my money into an aircraft that is more powerful and complex. I would have spent the same amount at Ari-Ben in Ft. Pierce FL to get the same amount of time in the Dutchess. Instead I'm getting BE1900 121 time.

"Invest", now that is a somewhat "comical" word to use there I must say myself, you have "rented" a seat out to play with the radios and the gear. You sure better hope that GIA keeps you after you are done with the 250 hours or Pinnacle picks ya up because you have pretty much "ZERO" other options out there. You are doing nothing more that whoring out and allowing the ex- CO scabs put a dummy in the right seat and avoid having to "HIRE" a "qualified" guy as a first officer. $8.00/hr to be a first officer in a 1900, that says it right there...

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[T-Gates]

The Russian:

You aren't debating anything new. You are just fanning the flames over PFT. Are you looking for 350, or Bobby to just throw down and say "F#$# It!!" "I love PFT!!!"??? In fact all you are doing is making them hate PFT more!

I did the GIA thing, and spent about 2 years of my life debating the Pros/Cons of PFT with all theese Gentlemen. Most if always they have been very civilized. You serve no purpouse but to re-ignite the eternal flame war that is PFT. You are doing a great disservice to all of the rest of us PFT'ers by continuing to piss people off by being so **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** proud and vocal.

I probaly know you, and you probaly know me. Do me a favor and let it rest.

 

[CFI'er]

OK, we bite the bait. What airline are you presently working for as a pilot?

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-Ter

Who? Me?

Thanks for the tone of your comments above. And, you are correct, I will not ever change my feelings about P-F-T; in fact, they have not changed in fourteen years, Russian's stiff retorts notwithstanding.

Having said all that, are you willing to share why you are not working at an airline as a pilot?

 

[bobbysamd]

Freight flying

Well I currently do work as a pilot. I was at GIA, then Pinnacle, (Long Story why I no longer work there) now I am flying freight in a Shorts 360.

Where on my profile does it say I am unemployed??

Good point.

Somehow, in my $0.02 opinion, I think you're better off flying Shorts freight than working for Pinnacle. Nothing wrong with that. You'll better off in the long run. Glad that it worked out for you.

 

[The_Russian]

Assumtions?

90% of the 220 grads of the program were "given" jobs according to GIA'a marketing department upon completion of the first officer program.

I'm not exactly sure where you get the term "given" from. GIA grads earned these jobs through hard work and study. Most of them put there entire lives on the line to give it a shot. Also, Pinnicle prefers GIA grads because they have a 97% pass rate in airline training as opposed to street hires which have a pass rate of 73%.

Atleast they are "respected" by others in the industry, something that you will not be able to obtain.

Am I going to be less respected for dressing up my resume? I think not. My fellow CFI's all hope to do the program soon and want the experiance very badly. Just because I am doing the first officer program doesn't mean my time as a CFI just disappeared. It doesn't make me a low time, unexperianced pilot. In fact I have spent more time instructing than most CFI's did before 9/11. And if I wasn't respected in the industry, then why to corporate pilots call me on a regular basis to fly with them? Other people I fly with know what I am doing and they don't judge my ability to operate an aircraft because I got an education loan. Most of those people are Senior Captains with majors or people with more hours and experiance than all the people on this thread combined. On a final note, I am content with my decision to attend GIA. I do not need your respect, nor have I requested it from someone who judges integrity based on their opinion of how one builds time.

"Invest", now that is a somewhat "comical" word to use there I must say myself, you have "rented" a seat out to play with the radios and the gear.

Give me a break. There are no autopilots in these aircraft. The SIC flys every other leg. Normal 121 stuff, you know that as well as anyone else. When I am in that right seat I am bound by all the rules and regulations of the SIC. I must be able to cover the duties and responsibilities of the SIC and act as PIC if necessary. This is a serious undertaking for anyone and GIA is even more serious about it.

You sure better hope that GIA keeps you after you are done with the 250 hours or Pinnacle picks ya up because you have pretty much "ZERO" other options out there.

Just wait a few months, things are changing. Geez, I wish I could tell you whats going on.

You are doing nothing more that whoring out and allowing the ex- CO scabs put a dummy in the right seat and avoid having to "HIRE" a "qualified" guy as a first officer.

GIA holds there pilots to the highest standard and expects their F/O's to be as competent as any other.

 

[bobbysamd]

Begging the P-F-T question

90% of the 220 grads of the program were "given" jobs according to GIA'a marketing department upon completion of the first officer program.

I'm not exactly sure where you get the term "given" from. GIA grads earned these jobs through hard work and study. Most of them put there entire lives on the line to give it a shot. Also, Pinnicle prefers GIA grads because they have a 97% pass rate in airline training as opposed to street hires which have a pass rate of 73%.

Perhaps "given" is not the best choice of words, but these are the exact words live and direct from the Gulfstream Academy website:

Over The Past Year, Gulfstream Has Successfully Placed Approximately 90% Of Its 220 Graduates Into Part-121 Airline First Officer Positions Flying The Boeing 717, Canadair And Embraer Regional Jet, Saab 340C, And Beech 1900D.

One question I would ask is are P-F-T grads being hired directly from P-F-T into the B717 jobs or must they stop at some regional along the way? I realize that schools of all kinds engage in deceptive hype to sell their course. My paralegal school was no exception. Having said that, the statement strongly represents that the next step after Gulfstream is such a job.

Also, how much energy does Gulfstream expend toward placing its grads? I feel I'm asking a fair question. Some schools that promise interviews do nothing after the first interview on the grounds that they fulfilled their obligations by lining up someone for the one interview. And - not referencing any place specifically - how does one know that interview was conducted in good faith? There is a signficant expenditure of money, not to mention signficant debt and signficant hopes, riding on that interview. An operator such as Gulfstream seemingly has a moral obligation to do everything possible to place its grads.

Am I going to be less respected for dressing up my resume? I think not. My fellow CFI's all hope to do the program soon and want the experiance very badly . . . . . And if I wasn't respected in the industry, then why to corporate pilots call me on a regular basis to fly with them?

Here, again, Russian, your comment begs the question as to why you would need to P-F-T in the first place. To the contrary, dressing-up your resume with P-F-T time would be totally unnecessary, and, perhaps, detrimental, if you can offer turbine and corporate experience along with instructing. (You had said on an earlier post that you have flown jets.) From the sounds of it, you sound like a hard worker and, from your comments on the thread about instrument approaches, a knowledgeable flight instructor.

Other people I fly with know what I am doing and they don't judge my ability to operate an aircraft because I got an education loan . . . .

. . . . which is absurd. Flying ability has nothing to do with how one finances one's training - especially so with P-F-T. Judging someone because he/she used education loans would invalidate much of this year's graduating college class, much less those who obtain loans to attend other types of schools.

On a final note, I am content with my decision to attend GIA. I do not need your respect, nor have I requested it from someone who judges integrity based on their opinion of how one builds time.

It's your decision. Right or wrong. But, in your situation, why P-F-T?

 

[ataopsdave]

bobbysamd

I know a guy that did the program there and interviewed with Pinnacle but didnt get the job. About 5 days after he found out he didnt get a job they called him and told him he would have an interview with Colgan next week.

 

[The_Russian]

Ok. Lets talk....

are P-F-T grads being hired directly from P-F-T into the B717 jobs or must they stop at some regional along the way?

No way! Actually most of those guys are Captains that went through the program and did there time at the airline. So, they were permenent hires after the F/O program, got Captain upgrade, then recently went to Air Tran. I think it was 5 or 6 in the past two months that got hired.

Also, how much energy does Gulfstream expend toward placing its grads?

They place an extreme amount of stress on their shoulders at the marketing department to keep this promise. If you don't get permenent hire, choose or don't get hired by Pinnicle, then the Program manager will do his best to get you a job at another regional. The leftovers from Pinnicle (some are leftover by choice) usually go to Colgan or Commute Air. I have only seen two guys not get hired by anyone. Honestly, if you don't pass the Pinnicle interview, then you need help on your professionalism. You and I both know that there are bad apples everywhere. <--- I believe this is improved grammar. j/k

Here, again, Russian, your comment begs the question as to why you would need to P-F-T in the first place.

First reason is because I wanted to. I know how good the program is and I want the training. Second, I have low multi time even though most of it is Beech Starship and CE-550 time. Oh yeah and the semen-hole too. I did the math and with having to commute to Ft. Pierce (V-8 gas guzzler), the cost would have been the same at Ari- Ben Aviator to build the time in the Dutchess.

Also I talked to a lot of friends at the regionals, (ASA, Great Lakes, COEX, and GIA CA's although this is somewhat bias) and they actually insisted that my attendence at GIA along with my instructional experiance would not only put me ahead of the pack, but ensure me a slot at their airlines. (previous 121 training) Not to say that I am in any way guaranteed a job, but I want an edge over the competition. I don't see it as stepping on others toes because I have CFI'ed for many years now.

I also have neglected to state that I also don't feel great about a 500 hr or less pilot in the right seat of an RJ. On the other hand, GIA is great training and the pilots that it produces are top-notch. I feel that most of these guys are the only exception to the 1000 hour rule. However I cannot defend TAB and others because I have never associated with their final product. I also have always encouraged my students at GIA to get their CFI and instruct on the side to build real PIC experiance and knowledge. Most have taken my advice and done it, even for extra cash (starving f/o's).

Hopefully this calmed response answers some of your questions. I also enjoyed your response to my post. I think we just got off to a long, bad start. I just needed to take a step back (some of my peers weren't too happy with me either).