Gulfstream Academy...

[350DRIVER]

or- > "assumptions" with a p?

I'm not exactly sure where you get the term "given" from. GIA grads earned these jobs through hard work and study. Most of them put there entire lives on the line to give it a shot. Also, Pinnicle prefers GIA grads because they have a 97% pass rate in airline training as opposed to street hires which have a pass rate of 73%.

Once again you seem to be nieve to the fact on why you are only given a select few choices of regionals to go to. I would almost bet any amount of money that GIA pays these folks to even grant you the interview let alone the job since it does wonders to be able to help with the Gulf cola that they make you guys drink. Pinnacle does not prefer GIA grads, that is pretty much complete BS and you know it... Management forced this upon the pilot group, wait until you see how little if any respect your fellow pilots will show you once you hit the line. You are in for one he!! of a rude awakening. Street hires are the NORM nieve one with most ALL airlines ( the guys who earned what they got). That fact has got to pi$$ you off beyond belief since ExpressJet, Skywest, AE, etc, etc, would laugh you right out the door if you tried to submit a resume to them and attempted to sell them on your 250 hours of 1900 SIC time...

Am I going to be less respected for dressing up my resume? I think not. My fellow CFI's all hope to do the program soon and want the experiance very badly. Just because I am doing the first officer program doesn't mean my time as a CFI just disappeared. It doesn't make me a low time, unexperianced pilot. In fact I have spent more time instructing than most CFI's did before 9/11. And if I wasn't respected in the industry, then why to corporate pilots call me on a regular basis to fly with them? Other people I fly with know what I am doing and they don't judge my ability to operate an aircraft because I got an education loan. Most of those people are Senior Captains with majors or people with more hours and experiance than all the people on this thread combined. On a final note, I am content with my decision to attend GIA. I do not need your respect, nor have I requested it from someone who judges integrity based on their opinion of how one builds time.

You cannot even obtain a single bit of respect on a public aviation message board and you think it will get any better? Boy you surely are in for many surprises when you hit the line at Pinnacle. You have no experience with the airlines, with management, training pilots, etc, etc, so I shall not waste my time trying to justify why no one is going to show you any respect whatsoever- most can clearly see why on this board who are in there right mind.. My opinion? I could care less but it should bother you just a tad that most all these airline guys on this board pretty much laugh when you make a post and would not even give you the time of day let alone any respect, I would hope you wouldn't listen to me but listen to the majority who agree with most of what I have said..

Give me a break. There are no autopilots in these aircraft. The SIC flys every other leg. Normal 121 stuff, you know that as well as anyone else. When I am in that right seat I am bound by all the rules and regulations of the SIC. I must be able to cover the duties and responsibilities of the SIC and act as PIC if necessary. This is a serious undertaking for anyone and GIA is even more serious about it.

What a joke, you acting as PIC - God help us, I just feel bad for the poor guy who is forced to babysit you on a three day trip... I would take the Greyhound before I ever stepped foot on one of your flights for the obvious safety risks and concerns. If only the American flying public knew they had ONE qualified guy in the left seat and a 400 hour seat renter in the right seat I surely think the loads would ne rather poor. Serious undertaking? LOL That is probably one of the funniest things I have read to date on this program. You present them with a blank check and you are worried about all the hard work you gotta put in to get line qualified- LOL

Just wait a few months, things are changing. Geez, I wish I could tell you whats going on.

jee, a place run by scabs... Hmm I could only imagine what is next. (much sarcasm intended)

GIA holds there pilots to the highest standard and expects their F/O's to be as competent as any other.

Right !! That is why you are paid $8.00/hr to sit in the seat you rented out.. I could not even imagine looking at myself in the mirror or others if I had to have done this, I would have changed careers. $8.00/hr to be held to such high standards and to be as competent as all others.... R I G H T

Perhaps "given" is not the best choice of words, but these are the exact words live and direct from the Gulfstream Academy website:

Bobby you cannot put lipstick on a pig and call it very pretty, it really does not work. You present a blank check to them and you think these guys are going to be washed out? Basic business 101.. I have heard of guys getting 2, 3, and 4 chances.. You get that many at an airline where they are paying you while in training and covering ALL training costs? Absolutely not- One shot deal...

One question I would ask is are P-F-T grads being hired directly from P-F-T into the B717 jobs or must they stop at some regional along the way? I realize that schools of all kinds engage in deceptive hype to sell their course.

AirTran requires 2500 TT or somewhere in that ballpark with 500 hours prior 121 time so I highly doubt anyone with 500TT was picked up right out of the GIA program. I have heard that some of the street captains that GIA hired are now at Citrus (AirTran) so that is strictly used an another ploy and deceptive tactic.

Also, how much energy does Gulfstream expend toward placing its grads? I feel I'm asking a fair question. Some schools that promise interviews do nothing after the first interview on the grounds that they fulfilled their obligations by lining up someone for the one interview. And - not referencing any place specifically - how does one know that interview was conducted in good faith? There is a signficant expenditure of money, not to mention signficant debt and signficant hopes, riding on that interview. An operator such as Gulfstream seemingly has a moral obligation to do everything possible to place its grads.

GIA or Pinnacle, I would assume not much.. Pinnacle is probably paid a portion of the $18,000+ to take these guys. Bobby they really have very few options if one and two fail.


It is very fortunate that the majority of guys come up the ranks the hard way through some blood, sweat, and tears, and due to these reasons most are all respected. These young and nieve guys like Russian are in for a big big surprise if they truly think that anyone is going to show them much respect... It is nothing more than common sense.


Good luck to you, better you than I ..


3 5 0

 

[bobbysamd]

Russian's P-F-T

While I do not agree with your P-F-T approach and some of your reasoning, I appreciate your answers. I also like how you encourage your students to get their CFIs. Your students should thank you for injecting realism into their aspirations and watering-down any Gulfstream Kool-Aid, which, I would still submit, flows like water. Or, for that matter, TAB cola.

I still think your multi time in the Starship and Citation would trump any lightness therein, and I still feel that you had no need to P-F-T.

Thanks for your answers. But, I still oppose P-F-T - for anyone - and especially those trying to cut in line.

 

[de727ups]

Silly claim

"street captains that GIA hired are now at Citrus (AirTran) so that is strictly used an another ploy and deceptive tactic."

About the dumbest thing I've ever heard....Gulfstream saying they place guys in a 717 cause some of their Capts got hired at AirTran. By the same logic, every flight school that an AirTran new hire ever attended could claim they place pilots in a 717...it's silly.

 

[The_Russian]

Yep

I agree. I don't think they should say that either.

 

[English]

I thought AirTran required 500 hours of part 121 PIC turbine, not plain ole vanilla part 121 time?

 

[Zekeflyer]

O.K. I get it. P-F-T...bad for your career.
But I again, I am 25 yrs old. is that old to start pursuing my airline dream? it seems like a lot of F/Os are 24 when they start. I am 25 and only about to get a private. I will probably get both an instrument and commercial rating just after I turn 26. I figure I will be thirty by the time I have built up sufficinet time to qualify to get into the airlines 1500+ hrs.
Question 1; is 25yrs old pre-private too old?
Question 2; if after all this, One actually makes it to the national Airlines, and you get laid off there after about 8yrs on the job, is it true that you have to start at the bottom of the pay scale if you take a job with another airline? All that experience you've built up counts for nothing? Is this true? I remember reading that somewhere but I am not sure. Could some one shed some light on this?

 

[de727ups]

No, 25 is not too old...especially since you have a degree. I had a friend who started in his late 30's and works at a major now.

Yes, if you leave one airline for another, you lose all your seniority. That's just the way this business works. You would start out at the bottom as an F/O, even if you were a Capt before.

I got hired at UPS in a class ahead of an ex-Braniff II Capt. I am a few numbers senior to him even though he had 727 Capt experience and I had never flown a jet.

In your current job, if you left after 8 years and went to another company, would you start on the 8 year pay scale at the new company?

 

[Zekeflyer]

Leaving an old post

In engineering, Leaving a job for another usually brings an uplift in pay. Yes you would pick up right where you left off and more often than not, you experience a salary increase as a result. This is the way things work in most "normal", non-seniority, merit based jobs.
That's shocking.

 

[DHPFLYN]

Hey I heard that GIA will get you a job right out of training is that true??? hA HA HA HA HA HA

PLEASE STOP THE MADNESS

 

[bobbysamd]

Aviation career pursuit

O.K. I get it. P-F-T...bad for your career.

At least some of us feel it is. A case can be made for P-F-T - I did during another argument, for argument's sake only - but, in my $0.02 opinion, the cons, potential detriment, what I feel is uncertainty after you finish P-F-T, and how your peers will react to you as a P-F-Ter outstrip by far any benefits. Not to mention the number that buying a job does to your psyche.

But I again, I am 25 yrs old. is that old to start pursuing my airline dream? it seems like a lot of F/Os are 24 when they start. I am 25 and only about to get a private. I will probably get both an instrument and commercial rating just after I turn 26. I figure I will be thirty by the time I have built up sufficinet time to qualify to get into the airlines 1500+ hrs.

I started flying when I was 31 and decided to pursue the career at age 36. I got jobs and had airline interviews; whether I was brought in to interview in good faith or to check off an ADEA and EEOC square is up for (educated) conjecture. My father always told me I should have started ten years earlier and he was right. So, the answer is "no," 25 is not too old to start the career.

Question 1; is 25yrs old pre-private too old?

See comment above.

Question 2; if after all this, One actually makes it to the national Airlines, and you get laid off there after about 8yrs on the job, is it true that you have to start at the bottom of the pay scale if you take a job with another airline?

Yes. You generally have to resign your seniority if you go to another airline. But, not always. It depends on the airline.

All that experience you've built up counts for nothing? Is this true?

Absolutely not. Your flight time and pilot ratings are not perishable. Currency is perishable, as is a CFI certificate. But, you can always get both back.

Hope that helps some more. Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

 

[Zekeflyer]

Leaving an Airline Post

Bobbysamd,
Thanks for your input. So when you resign from say American and go to shall we say Delta, You could start at the very bottom but that won't be the case at all airlines. YOU COULD PICK-UP RIGHT WHERE YOU LEFT OFF? i.e. in terms of salalry at that previous seniority position?
When I said all that experience counts for nothing I meant all that flight time you had flying for teh previous airline doesn't go in to the decision of the new employer to decide where your pay scale is?
What about a jump from commercial airlines to cargo flying? is that normal?

 

[bobbysamd]

Resigning seniority

So when you resign from say American and go to shall we say Delta, You could start at the very bottom but that won't be the case at all airlines. YOU COULD PICK-UP RIGHT WHERE YOU LEFT OFF? i.e. in terms of salalry at that previous seniority position?

Why would one resign from American in the first place? I realize a lot has changed over the years, but once you are hired into a major, barring furloughs, failures, etc., you generally stay there for the duration of your career. Being a pilot for the majors is not like working in business or industry. You don't leave companies for better pay, promotions, etc. You stay where you are. Using your example, you would have to start at the very bottom of the seniority and scale list. I do not know of an instance where you can hold seniority at one 121 carrier while working for another. Perhaps you can at one of the Jets For Jobs carriers.

Some companies do not require you to resign seniority. But, that does not necessarily mean that they will hire you at the same salary or give you seniority upon hire.

When I said all that experience counts for nothing I meant all that flight time you had flying for teh previous airline doesn't go in to the decision of the new employer to decide where your pay scale is?

From the way you ask the question, the answer is "no." Every place that I know has a scale. No matter who you are or how much Space Shuttle or 747 time you have, you still must start at the bottom of scale and build seniority.

What about a jump from commercial airlines to cargo flying? is that normal?

What is normal? It depends. I have a former student who went from pax operations at SkyWest to freight hauling at FedEx.

 

[Joe 4836]

To the engineer

Do yourself a favor, get your private buy a plane and fly for fun on the weekends.

 

[Casper]

The fast route ?

I am 38 years old and have two children to support just four years ago I had decided to do this crazy thing and change my career and everyone said I was nuts after I spent thousands of $$$ on my ratings going from 141 to 61 schools with no guidence I thought now how the heck do I build time ? It will be hard for me to instruct with my family I just can't do it, so I took a traffic watch job and did this for one year in that year and built just over 1000 hours I worked morning, afternoon, and night shift and would drive 25 miles in the morning to pick up the plane and 25 home at night in traffic which is about 3 hours drive time a day if not more I would come home like a zombie and go straight to sleep , barely saw my kids and did it all for lousy 10 bucks an hour not to mention flying right seat in junky multi-engine aircraft as a saftey pilot to build my multi time ,but after all is said and done and all the time and money spent I am now trying to find a job four years after I started. I guess what I am trying to say is there is no short cut the crappy jobs you will take and the time it takes to get to where you want will not only make you a better pilot but once you land that airline job or whatever it is you decide to do you will have much more respect for your self and will have gained respect from others as well.
There is no such thing as short cuts just hard work..
Good luck !

 

[Zekeflyer]

to the 38 yr old

My hat's off to you. You are a stronger man than I. I know I will just have to buckle down and get it done. There are no shortcuts to anything. if you want something nice you have to work hard for it. from medicine to law even engineering, there is no susbtitute to slugging through it and getting to hte fifnish line.
I guess i'll just have to get all my ratings and work as a part-time CFI until I can recoupe the money I spent getting my ratings. I am fortunate to be young, unattched(no kids) or house and it comes down to me just realizing that I have it better than most. At least I wont be in debt when I finish.
It is after all what I have dreamed of doing since I was six years old. and getting a degree in Engineering was a way to pay for flight trianing b/c it was too expensive coming out of high school.