Gulfstream Academy

[RueterF16]

Confused..

I think some of you are confused about the airline industry and low payscales... The industry as a whole isn't going to be damaged by pilots paying for training, or paying to get their flight time with a company. The payscales are the way they are because that is what the economy will support. Now, I know that you will say that unions have helped acheive a nice payscale for their members and there are a lot of benefits to a union, they have and there are but, it hasn't come without it's costs. Most of those costs are in the furloughs of junior members. A pilot paying for training is not harming the industry in anyway. The fact is, there are more pilots out there than there are positions to fill... plain and simple that gives the companies the chance to lower their payscales. You have your options, Either get rid of 10-20,000 pilots and make that margin a little better, call an industry wide strike (which will never happen) and keep people from training anymore to insure your job security, OR live with the fact that airline companies are going to pay you what you're worth (in their eyes, not yours). If you don't want to settle for a lower paying airline job... don't bother applying to that company, you would be better suited getting a higher paying non-flying job and flying private on the side.

 

[airmack]

Gulfstream reply...

Why do people get so worked up about pay for training? Some of these pilots sound like a bunch of whiney babies that probably never held down a "real" job in their life. Given the opportunity, I am quite sure that many, if not all the pilots, who bash pay-for-training programs, would be the first in line to go to Southwest Airlines (where you pay for your type rating). I am currently with GIA, and being ex-military the GOV. picked up the majority of my training expense. All this garbage about being marked on your resume is just that! GARBAGE! Our guys are getting picked up with the majors just like everyone else. To answer your question, would I recommend this program? Yes, but not at this time. The airline industry is on hold so there is no flow within the company. All the non-permanent F/O's are getting the 250 hours and being let go. Within a couple of months, we will be receiving our first ATR’s from Co-Ex. Continental plans on making our entire fleet ATR. When this happens, you can say good-bye to the academy. I hope this helps. If you have anymore questions drop me a line. God Bless!

 

[Wiggums]

Re: Gulfstream reply...

Why do people get so worked up about pay for training? Some of these pilots sound like a bunch of whiney babies that probably never held down a "real" job in their life.

Please explain how paying $19,800 to warm the right seat of a 1900 is a “real job”.

A real job is where you get paid a fair market wage. At a real job the company picks up the training costs. At a real job they won't kick you to the curb after 250 hours so they can get another sucker to pony up 20k.

mkingmei: You're 325hrs short of Part 135 IFR mins. Get that and find a 135 job. You'll save $20,000 and get some better experience.

 

[publisher]

response

I would remind flydog of a few things.

1. UPAS was founded by ALPA

2. Gulfstream started their second officer deal in a flying situation that did not require a second officer at all. Did not take anyones job and gave some the opportunity for multi time.

3. Tell me who among us has not ever gone to a local airport and begged for some time for free.

4. I do not endorse Climbto350, I think he takes jobs from others web sites and the companies do not use him as he represents.

5. I have started three aviation companies that employ pilots and still do today. If I did them again today, I would use AEPS type of services.

6. AEPS and Air Inc must be viable, they have aviation companies and airlines who constantly indicate they work with them because they provide a service. Exploitation? If you do not think they will help you, don't use them. You obviosuly do not need any help.

 

[Ty Webb]

Sorry, Guys, but I have to weigh in here.

As someone who has been following this board for the past four years (and others, some now defunct), and as someone who was looking for their first job during the PFT days of the mid 1990's, I feel pretty qualified to comment.

1) Gulfstream rents out the right seat to suckers willing to pay $18,000. for 250 hours.

2) If some pilots were not willing to pay for this seat, then GIA would be forced to actually hire and pay pilots to serve as SIC (what a concept).

3) Many of the "pilots" willing to rent that seat are from outside the US. [Why they are still allowed to get VISAs for these people is beyond me].

4) Most people who were around during the days of PFT chose NOT to pay. Those going to Comair, COEX, ACA and a few others did, but the vast majority of us did not- and it was not because we couldn't pay for it-
almost any pilot who had invested the time and money necessary to get the ratings could find somewhere to come up with $7,000. bucks, which was usually financed by the airline itself. No, most of us chose not to pay, because it seemed morally repugnant and unprofessional.

5) Those of us who chose NOT to PFT resent those who DID, and if I have a choice of hiring someone who got their experience legitimately, or hiring someone who paid money to get out of building that experience, guess who I'm going to hire?

6) At the last three companies I worked for (2 of which were in FL) we routinely received resumes from GIA guys. All of them went into the trash, at all three employers, even when we needed SIC's for our Metros. That's a fact. Chief Pilots do NOT like pilots who made a paying job disappear, and that's exactly what GIA does.

"Publisher"s bizarre statement that what GIA is doing is OK because they started by renting out the right seat in CE402's when an F/O was not required has no correlation with what they are doing today, and I would be willing to bet that an F/O was required, because they probably chose not to keep the autopilots operable, since they had a paying autopilot in the right seat.

 

[Jboss]

Wow.

Maybe you should consider going a bit easier on the PFT guys and Gals. I'm not one of them, but I work with a lot of them. Such was the business when they got in, and I don't blame them. Maybe it was a stupid and unfair system, but that was the system, and for some it was the best option considering every factor in their lives at the time. I just can't imagine ever discriminating against these very talented pilots in a hiring situation based solely on the fact that they pft'ed. When you interview somebody, you hire them based in large part on how they interviewed....you know, on personality. I just think you'd be selling yourself short and missing out on some great folks. But to each his own.

Fly safe

 

[jaybird]

To me it's a question of character. Put two people in the same interview. Both are great people, great pilots and meet the same minimums, however one is a PFT'er and the other worked his way up the food chain. Who would you want to choose?

It says something about a person who wants the easy way out, or into a cockpit I know I am still a neophyte in this industry, but I know taking the longer road will be more fulfilling in the end.

 

[mkingmei]

thats enough

well i think we have moved off of the topic of my original post. I want to say thank you to the people who actually tried to give me information and no thanks to the people who used this as there own personal soap box.

all i asked for was information, i didn't ask whether anyone thought it was ."morally repugnant or unprofessional". no one ever thinks that in the long run it creates a paying job for what might be a great pilot or maybe even your best friend some day.

think about this for a second... is PFT any different then those of you that daddy bought an airplane for????????

just as a side note... has anyone done the math on 250 hours for $19800? very similar to an hour of C172 time.

thanks again

 

[airmack]

Re: Re: Gulfstream reply...

Please explain how paying $19,800 to warm the right seat of a 1900 is a “real job”.

In reference to your statement. Prior to going to GIA I was a mechanic in the military for 8 year busting my knuckles on fighters, while you were at your house watching Mr. Rogers and whining to your mom about kids that cut in front of you at the water fountain. I am a true believer in investing for your future. Your probably still waiting for someone to pay for your college degree. Give me a break! I didn't pay 19,800 for 250 hours. I paid $7500 for 250 hours, my Uncle Sam paid the rest. If you do the math, it's $30 per flight hour. Not a bad investment from my point of view.

 

[flydog]

To Publisher:

1. UPAS was founded by ALPA

So what. They continue to charge $100 and up for people
to update resumes at airlines who are
obviously not hiring. Cheating these people out of money
by giving them false hope of a job is a scam


2. Gulfstream started their second officer deal in a flying situation that did not require a second officer at all. Did not take anyones job and gave some the opportunity for multi time.

Gulfstream isnt in the business to help people as you try
to convince us. Their only interest is their bottom line.
If Gulfstream didnt exist their business would go to a
legitimate Regional Airline that hires experienced pilots
for honest pay



3. Tell me who among us has not ever gone to a local airport and begged for some time for free.

All of us have and there is nothing wrong for it. There is
also nothing wrong with paying for that time or reimbursing
the owner, etc. This is not the same as paying for a job.
When you bum a ride from someone you are not putting
another pilot out of work and lowering the industry
pay scales



6. AEPS and Air Inc must be viable, they have aviation companies and airlines who constantly indicate they work with them because they provide a service. Exploitation? If you do not think they will help you, don't use them. You obviosuly do not need any help.

Enron must also be a viable company since companies
worked with them ?!??

Charging people $20 head to sit in a room with 30 other
pilots to listen to a so called recuiter talk about his company
is a scam. Much like going to a Wade Cook investing seminar
The reason these companies work with AEPS is because
they profit from Air Fairs and seminars