Grounds for Pilot termination

[Jedi_Cheese]

Why in the world would FedEx complain about getting free help? That sounds fishy to me.

Sounds like something in the contract. The throwers want to safeguard their job and complain to a manager. Either that or it has to do something with the training required (I can't change lightbulbs or use a tall ladder at my workplace because I am not 'trained').

 

[TonyC]

Sounds like something in the contract. The throwers want to safeguard their job and complain to a manager. Either that or it has to do something with the training required (I can't change lightbulbs or use a tall ladder at my workplace because I am not 'trained').

You gotta understand, the only employees at FedEx with a contract are the pilots. The ramp manager would be DELIGHTED to have his labor performed for free. And there is no training required to load/unload boxes that a pilot of the same airplane would need.

 

[Publishers]

more

There is obviously more to the story than we have here as far as the FEDEX.

My case does not involve FEDEX but I used them as the example.

One interesting aspect of the legalistic questions is the defining of an airline. To me, putting FEDEX, UPS, Emery or any of the freight haulers in the same context as an airline because they fly big aircraft is something that causes misconception as to what the businesses are.

We certainly do not put fractionals in the same context as Delta but we do often with a FEDEX. In the case of UPS as example, the vast number of boxes moved never see or have anything to do with the air system.

While these may seem like small points, they are huge on the business side of the house. There is a considerable difference between me taking my personal self and flying to xxx on xxx airline and me having a box arrive at my front door in a couple of days from my order. As long as it shows up,, I do not care much how it got there.

 

[TonyC]

Publishers,

I'm confused. What are you asking? It seems that when your questions are addressed, you change the question. Fractionals, boxes, ACMI, disgruntled customers - - FedEx and UPS are airlines... where are you going?

Perhaps if you could better articulate your question you could get a cogent answer.

 

[skydiverdriver]

Don't worry Tony, that's normal for Publisher. He likes to jump around a bit.

I worked for a Fedex feeder, and my employer asked us not to touch any boxes. It wasn't a union thing, as neither of us was a member. I believe the reason was that if a pilot got hurt helping out, the flight would cancel and none of the boxes would make it. I helped out by picking one up off the ground once, and the loaders thanked me. I think someone wanted to get rid of that guy for another reason.

Back to the original question, if I had an employee that someone didn't like because he looked Mid-Eastern, I would tell the client that he needed to go to work on his own prejudice. If the pilot in question made remarks that were illegal, like that he was going to do something dangerous, then the client should have called the police and had him arrested. It sounds to me like they just don't trust the guy and perhaps they don't trust anyone that doesn't look like them. I think it's the client's fault, not the employer. Of course, the pilot's employer would have to get both sides of the story before he took any action.

Again, these are only the opinions of individual pilots, and most of us are probably not lawyers.

 

[Publishers]

jump

You are right, I am sorry to jump around a bit.

What I am trying to define is the clients right to effect termination of your employee in the context of the unique role and relationship that charter, acmi, or contractors have when they fly the customers goods or people.

 

[Jedi_Cheese]

Ask for the complaint in writing for your records (if possible a verbal reply with other witnesses may work) and ask for specific stuff ("I don't like him" probibly won't hold up).

Seriously, you need to keep your customers happy else you won't be able to do business, but don't sell the farm for them.

If the troubles are with the ethnicity of the pilot (as you told us), remind the customer that the pilot is certified by the FAA, is a very experienced pilot, passes your strict safety standards, has not broken any rules, and is a very safe pilot (don't say something untrue, but try to sell the pilot to the customers). Assure them that you will try to accomidate their prefrence but that sometimes that you may be unable to have another pilot to fill in for the problem pilot due to scheduling constraints.

I don't think they can terminate the contract on the spot but they might not renew the contract when the it is up. If 80% of your business is there, you are going to get f*cked when they leave.

 

[TonyC]

Re: jump

What I am trying to define is the clients right to effect termination of your employee in the context of the unique role and relationship that charter, acmi, or contractors have when they fly the customers goods or people.

OK, then... let's go with that.

What if...


Suppose that you are an employer that does business in a particular office, and the majority of your business involves your customer coming to YOUR office, where he is greeted by YOUR secretary. (I guess they call those Administrative Professionals or something like that, now - - you know what I mean.) And let's say, one of your best customers decides for some arbitrary reason he doesn't like your secretary. Further, suppose he says one day "You know, I don't care for Susy's _______ (fill in the balnk), I think you need to let her go before I come back to do business with you again."

Now, Susy is an excellent employee, a stellar performer in every way. You've never had problem one with her, but now you're faced with a problem with her. Or are you?

Doesn't it seem like the problem is the customer?

I'm not so sure the scenario you describe is all that unique. The same principal can be applied in numerous workplace environments.

Rather than worry yourself about your rights, obligations, and liabilities of firing her, why not question your relationship with the customer?

Are you a man of principal, or are you willing to walk over people for a buck?

 

[Publishers]

Tony

A good example but not necessarily the exact scenario.

Let's say I am dong business with two customers and have 100 people in the entire organization. One customer does 65% of the business and I have 50 people dedicated to him who know his products and routines. Every day I have Joe deliver the raw material that customer orders over to the first customers plant . One day he calls and says the individual I send made some remarks and he no longer wants that party on the premises of his plant. He was hired to do his delivery work and the other customer and product do not call for delivery.

I have to let him go and he sues me for discrimination because he is Iranian.

 

[TonyC]

If the employee did something wrong and you want to fire him, fire him becaue he did something wrong. Why is that so hard?

If he did nothing wrong, take it up with the customer. Again, not hard.

You want to know what you can do to keep him from suing that you discrimnated? Nothing. You can never keep him from suing. You can insulate yourself from having to pay by not doing anything wrong, but you can't keep him from suing. Nothing unique there, either.

If you want loyal employees, you'd better be getting his side of the story before you do anything.

What am I missing?

 

[enigma]

Publisher, As I read the point/counterpoint, I still wonder what you are looking for. Obviously, if an employee is no longer suited for a job you let him go.

I would love to be able to speak specifically, but you don't give specifics, so we are forced to read between the lines. Doing so, I would think..........if the charter company had an almost exclusive relationship with one customer.... then issues such as this would have been worked out in advance. If ways to work out the inevitable conflicts were omitted from the agreement (charter to customer) then I'll say that the problem doesn't lie with the employee.

Or, I could just say this..........I wonder how the manager of the service provider feels to be in a business relationship in which he is the weaker party? The worm sometimes turns,

enigma

 

[Publishers]

Enigma

The facts are very similar to what I stated. YThe individual reportedly made some remark about he would set off a bomb if his country asked him to. While what he said is not clear, it was sufficient to get him removed from the property of the customer.

What I was looking for was whether or not you guys recognized a difference between an airline with its own customers and a charter sub who is subservient to others and realized the predicament the employer was in

 

[enigma]

Re: Enigma

What I was looking for was whether or not you guys recognized a difference between an airline with its own customers and a charter sub who is subservient to others and realized the predicament the employer was in

OK, so you weren't really asking a question. You were just making a statement. Why not just do that to begin with?

Did we pass your test? When do we get our cookie?

enigma

One more thing, the employer is in a predicament of his own making. The employer either needs to hire employees with the understanding that they must please the main customer, or the customer needs to understand that he can't dictate charter personel. He deserves to lose a wrongful termination lawsuit.
And another thing, if the charter company does this poor a job in this area, in what other areas might they be missing details?
Once again, employees pay because of poor management.

 

[TonyC]

Re: Enigma

YThe individual reportedly made some remark about he would set off a bomb if his country asked him to. While what he said is not clear, it was sufficient to get him removed from the property of the customer.

What I was looking for was whether or not you guys recognized a difference between an airline with its own customers and a charter sub who is subservient to others and realized the predicament the employer was in

There is no predicament, and the employment relationship is irrelevant. If the employee made reference to setting off a bomb, fire him, and escort him off YOUR property, too. If he didn't, he can do his job - - it's the customer's problem, not yours.

See how simple that was?

 

[Publishers]

customer

It was not a test Enigma, just an exercise to hear opinions on what I considered a difficult position the company is in.

Tony there is no such thing as the customers problem not mine. His problems are mine. The question relates to whether or not charter pilots acknowledge that keeping the customer happy and not doing things that offend them are just as much part of the job as flying.

It is often brought up in FA discussions that "we are here for safety of the passengers, not glorified waiters." Well that may be but we would not have any passengers if you did a great job of safety but pissed off every passenger on the plane with your attitude and service.

 

[Indigo]

Re: customer

The question relates to whether or not charter pilots acknowledge that keeping the customer happy and not doing things that offend them are just as much part of the job as flying.

Speaking as a charter pilot, I know this is true, at least for me. However, it was emphazed to me during the interview, during training, and at various times afterwards. There's no question in my mind that I would be terminated, and rightly so, if I made some remark to a customer about setting off a bomb. Of course, then it becomes a he-said, she-said issue.

As far as being able to weed people out in the interview, I think this is sometimes difficult. People have their "interview face" on, and some will say anything to get a job. In my opinion this is a bad move, even from the applicant's standpoint, because you may get a job you are unsuited for and are unhappy with. I have seen this happen more than once in various industries.

 

[enigma]

Re: Re: customer

Speaking as a charter pilot, I know this is true, at least for me. However, it was emphazed to me during the interview, during training, and at various times afterwards. There's no question in my mind that I would be terminated, and rightly so, if I made some remark to a customer about setting off a bomb. Of course, then it becomes a he-said, she-said issue.

Exactly, I was just about to write the same thing. Every charter pilot I've ever met understands this to be the situation.

enigma

 

[mar]

The obvious corollary

As far as being able to weed people out in the interview, I think this is sometimes difficult. People have their "interview face" on, and some will say anything to get a job.

This is true. So it's important to check out references and work history and avoid the "warm body" philosophy of hiring.

But of course, warm bodies work cheaper. And true professionals ask for what they deserve...

So the employers and the customers both get what they paid for.

Ah, you see, there is a rhythm and balance in the world.