Greed Greed Greed

[100LL... Again!]

Is TABexpressF/O back? Under another name?

Methinks.


Drinking Fool-Aid

 

[Bally]

Flame bait? Hardly. Unless of coarse that not walking lock step is the same as creating flame bait.

Gulfstreams comment that loyalty has nothing to do with being at an airline for 20 years is revealing. If you were a business owner, would'nt it be great to have Gulfstream 200 as an employee?

General Lee's last post would prompt a headache in any shareholder as the complexity of we will if they, the investment bankers say this, if A then B, but if they do not agree to C, than we can not do A, unless B agrees to C and a fraction of D, I am never going to agree to E. Shoooot, my brain would be mush if I
had to deal with an equation so complex.

While the labor groups and management are waiting for the moons and planets to line up just right before action is taken, Delta will add to its three year 3 Billion dollar loss. While Delta was emassing a 773 million dollar loss in 2003 and recognized the worst financial condition in its 75 year history, the profitable operators where adding to their market share, buying equipment, accumulating cash reserves, etc.

General Lee. Stop worrying so much what managment is going to do with the money and go fly the airplane. While I am sure you are a great aviator, suck it in and trust your management. If the work groups are unable to trust the management to do the right thing without having to bless each time they wipe their a##, then your company is toast.

 

[Bally]

Oh ya Enigma, I forgot this tid bit of flaime bait.

General Lee: "... willing to give up to 20% if you know where your investment is going"...???

Dude, your "giving up a lot of money" is not your investing in Delta. It a correction to managments stupidity for signing off on a contract that IN PART created a financial disaster for Delta.

Your cost per seat mile is over 10 cents. Half of that is labor. Over half of that goes to the pilots. Y'all are over paid. Look at the numbers. Your pay is over 50% greater than the industry average. Unless your FA's are offering BJ's to the pax, those number cannot compete with our friends at JB.

Most pay till the last day is a great bumper sticker.

 

[BoilerUP]

I have no dog in this fight, other to say that I believe the General hasn't done anything to warrant being called out like this. Besides his swipes at the Comair guys and gals, his posts are very logical and backed up by fact. On the other hand, I read this from Bally....

General Lee. Stop worrying so much what managment is going to do with the money and go fly the airplane. While I am sure you are a great aviator, suck it in and trust your management. If the work groups are unable to trust the management to do the right thing without having to bless each time they wipe their a##, then your company is toast.

Please, go tell that to an ex-Braniff, Texas Air, Continental, Eastern, or TWA pilot and find out what they'd say.

Its obvious DALPA is going to have to give concessions, but it is DAL mgmt, not DALPA, that is dragging their feet. I sure wouldn't want 31% of my pay to disappear with no visible, concrete plan of how those "labor savings" are going to save my company. If management can squander and waste $1, they can squander and waste $100 million just the same. I'd want to know where that cash was going, and "golden parachutes" are NOT a valid answer.


Those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it...

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

Oh ya Enigma, I forgot this tid bit of flaime bait.

General Lee: "... willing to give up to 20% if you know where your investment is going"...???

Dude, your "giving up a lot of money" is not your investing in Delta. It a correction to managments stupidity for signing off on a contract that IN PART created a financial disaster for Delta.

Your cost per seat mile is over 10 cents. Half of that is labor. Over half of that goes to the pilots. Y'all are over paid. Look at the numbers. Your pay is over 50% greater than the industry average. Unless your FA's are offering BJ's to the pax, those number cannot compete with our friends at JB.

Most pay till the last day is a great bumper sticker.

How did we go from being happy to put in a hard days work to being pissed that Delta guys make too much??

It's human nature. Look at the boom and bust cycle in this industry. Management does some dumb things and a labor group will have a mob like mentality. Some in the union, usually the bottom 40%, will disagree with where the union is going. As you say don't worry about what management is doing. I would add, IMHO, don't worry about the folly of other pilots.

The example you will set will do more than brow beating those who don't get it.

 

[PSL]

Bally:

In a previous post, it was suggested you fly for SWA. In one of your posts you chided the General to go fly the plane and give some yet to be determined percentage of his pay willingly and trust his management.

I can only assume you have never flown for another 'major' and had your giveback squandered away by a management that was more concerned with 'their paycheck' than the health of the company. Ask the AA pilots what they think of Carty, the USAirways pilots what they think of Colodney, Schoefield, Wolf and now Siegel and tell me the General is being greedy.

And before you start in on me about not understanding the business of aviation, I have one of the AACSB school MBAs just like Leo.

It's easy to trust management when you have one (if you are a SWA pilot) that has demonstrated intelligence and foresight over an exteneded period of time as SWA's has.

The General is not greedy; he is prudent, measured and above all
realistic. I wonder if your opinion of him might change if you witnessed the arrogance and sense of entitlement, some of his management's team demonstrates. You have to remember, the General (I assume you were around for this one) has endured Leo and the 7.5 program that virtually destroyed what was once the premier airline culture in the world.

I would be far more willing to have the General invest a $100.00 of my money than you.

Your romantic vision of flying 'this' line is unrealistic.

If you believe it's labor's responsibility to correct an allegedly 'bad' decision to sign the DALPA proposal, you need to examine the managerial structure at your airline. Not once, have I ever seen a management team reporting to labor who reports to the shareholders. We (the pilots) report to management who is accountable to the shareholders.

I don't have time to fly the airplane, as you suggest, AND manage the company.

My priorities are the safe and efficient use of the airplane when I am up front, and my family when I walk off the deck. Simple.

 

[General Lee]

I really don't remember ever saying "highest pay till the last day." I remember saying that I hoped that we would give some money (not all of our money) to the company and just move forward. Most of the current analysts (like Sam Butrick) agree that Delta should accept a good deal form the pilots now, versus waiting two years for a "perfect contract." Who really is wasting money there? They could have instant savings NOW, versus more savings later--even though AA will be receiving more pay increases as time goes by---and our gap between them narrowing.

Bally---as far as trusting management--you have to earn trust. Leo and his boys have not earned it and have since left the company with a huge loot. We were excited that we would get some "new" leadership (even though Grinstein has been on the board since '89 and he hired Leo)---but lately he has not shown a willingness to NEGOTIATE--since we are the only group with a contract and a union. He cannot treat us like the other groups---we have a contract. Listen up here because I think you are failing to understand me---"WE ARE WILLING TO NEGOTIATE FOR PAY CUTS AND OTEHR CUTS NOW, RIGHT NOW. BUT WE WILL NOT BE TAKEN FOR A RIDE."


Our route of action is the smart thing to do, and I think you know that. We will eventually give up some pay and benies that we have worked hard to amass---and that is fine if it helps the company in the long run---but it will be done as an investment.
You sound like you would like to be in management yourself someday? As far as this thread is concerned, it really is getting redundant---"We want to give up pay---but not get taken." Say that ten times in your head and go get another beer....

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[skykid]

It is hard for me to understand how anybody could view high pay in their chosen profession as bad. It is equally hard for me to understand how folks flying for LCCs hope for the demise of, or some of, the 'legacy' carriers. Neither is good for the future of this profession. If the Delta guys take huge cuts, my bet is it will take decades to see that kind of compensation again. That's not being greedy - it would be nice to be paid for the length of time taken to get to the top. See some of the bigger airlines go, and the higher paying jobs are gone forever. Sure the void will be filled - for less and less compensation. Your LCC doesn't have the only mgt team or CEO genius that can go out and get finacing for new planes and copy the model. It may be hard to get gate agents or FAs to work for even less, but there are thousands of pilots who will do your job at the LCC for lots less. They'll take stock option retirements - which is great until a couple coworkers you don't even know have a 10 second lapse in judgment and the retirement money is all gone. Let's see what Virgin USA pays their pilots - think that will be the bottom - doubt it! I am disappointed the General never admitted turkeys are good flyers with or without the aid of wind, but we need him on that wall! If you don't see why - you can't handle the truth!

 

[Maynard]

???

Thought this was the interview board...my mistake.

 

[skykid]

Great, time for monthly "I thought this was an interview board," post. I hope pilots will be interviewing for Delta sooner rather than later, and for decent wages - there.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

Re: ???

Thought this was the interview board...my mistake.

Why do you ask, is SWA not your cup of tea?


I would say that having, and practicing, the proper attitude would help anyone in an interview. Even a furloughed Delta pilot.

 

[calfo]

I remember reading once that, even if AAL pilots worked for free, they still wouldn't be able to match the CASM of SWA.

So what?

What an airline's pilots get paid has little to do with the overall financial health of an airline.

Somebody help Bally with his spelling and grammar, please... it's painful to read such an obvious doofus's posts.

 

[100LL... Again!]

"Trust your management..."


Who can say this with a straight face?

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice...

 

[TonyC]

General Lee's last post would prompt a headache in any shareholder as the complexity of we will if they, the investment bankers say this, if A then B, but if they do not agree to C, than we can not do A, unless B agrees to C and a fraction of D, I am never going to agree to E. Shoooot, my brain would be mush if I
had to deal with an equation so complex.

I believe we can all attest to the validity of your brain being mush. 5 variables in one equation is clearly way over your head. The only varibale you seem to be able to grasp is the size of General Lee's... paycheck?

And you're angry that his is bigger than yours??

They have a name for this phenomenon... some kinda envy....


"Suck it in and trust your management"!?!?! You must be on drugs.