Greed Greed Greed

[cptsesso]

I have a friend who is furloughed from Delta and we were just discussing this very subject the other day. He says he, along with many others, is more than ready to offer a 20% salary decrease as long as management is willing to agree that they will not receive any bonuses or such. He says management will not agree to that.

I believe he cited American Airlines pilots (I may be wrong about the Airline) as giving up like 40% or something and then management received nice bonuses afterwards.

Delta pilots should stand firm on this in my opinion.

 

[General Lee]

I believe Bally works for Southwest.

Bally,

You really don't understand my position, do you? I am willing to give some pay back because I do love my job, and this company. But, you can't just give away the farm unless you know exactly what will happen with the money. Will Delta use it to pay off the debt, or to finance the debt? Will they buy more RJs? What would they do with it? Delta also only has one union (unlike Southwest, or UAL, or AA etc..)---which means that management doesn't want the other groups to get unions on the property. They would rather whipsaw the groups against each other, and mainly take from the pilots----appeasing the other groups to not go for the unions. We also actually invested in advice from investment banks and other experts--and they looked it over and told us what we needed to do. (Some say the investment bankers told us "what we wanted to hear...." If that were the case---it would have been "give nothing!") We still stand ready to continue to negotiate---and that is something you seem to NOT understand here. Greedy? I think not. Also, this problem we have needs help from everyone involved----since we all have a stake in Delta's success. Does that make sense? I think it does---with the pilots paying the most---which I think is fine. Enjoy that warm climate. And here is another tip----don't leave your car running in a closed garage---it might kill you!

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Rock]

"the only people looking to stay 20 years at any airline are the pilots....sad but true."

Newsflash here, but that's because the pilots can't afford to go anywhere else, because you could spend 18 years as a 747 Captain at AirWhatever and go right to the panel of a 707 the day you move to another airline. That's not loyalty. That's bondage. And that bondage system isn't coming from "the company".

 

[wil]

So the greedy DAL Pilots need to take a 20% pay cut? Can someone post the golden parachute Leo got after less than 10 years of service? I know the pilots are looking to chip in but I think the upper management greed stinks like yesterday's diapers!!

I can hear the General Lee's horn blowing in the distance!!

 

[enigma]

General, Why respond to such obvious flame bait?

enigma

 

[General Lee]

Enigma,

I don't know. I try to respond to anyone who singles me out.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[dadawgs]

The General has always sound down to earth to me.

I will however tell you what the ultimate greed is. It is when I get on a Delta jumseat and the $300,000 a year Captain is pissed off because I am RJ pilot. Now That is Greed. It always amazes me that someone could be so out of touch with reality.

 

[KCSO780]

I have to agree with the General in that you can't give the farm away until you know where the money is going. Would you give a stock broker your life savings to invest without knowing what he's investing it in. But the other side is what Dadawgs said about "$300,000 captains". It's o.k. Dawg, I feel your pain.....

 

[delivery100]

Bally,

Your the kind of "company man" that would probably cross the line. Someone called you naive on an earlier post.....thats a friggin understatement! Grow up and get a clue!!

 

[General Lee]

dadawgs and KCS0780,

I have run into those same $300,000 wonders, and there are some that still greenslip (get double pay on days off) with 1060 furloughs on the street. Most of the Capts I fly with on the 757/767 are pretty nice, with the cocky ones mixed in there. I don't know why a senior Capt would hassle an RJ pilot---they really are out of touch sometimes. I actually was at DL Express for a while (737-200s) and I was jumping back home and the Capt asked me where I flew? I said DL Express. He said, "Hey, we are trying to get you on our seniority list..." I looked at the FO and he was shaking his head. Out of touch indeed.(I was already on it)

delivery100,

I don't know why he would say that--but he did say he was drinking....I have never said that we should not take some sort of pay cut to help the company---but we should be cautious at the same time unless we know EXACTLY where our INVESTMENT will go.....And I think most of us would go for up to 20%---which is A LOT OF MONEY GONE FROM OUR POCKETS.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[100LL... Again!]

Is TABexpressF/O back? Under another name?

Methinks.


Drinking Fool-Aid

 

[Bally]

Flame bait? Hardly. Unless of coarse that not walking lock step is the same as creating flame bait.

Gulfstreams comment that loyalty has nothing to do with being at an airline for 20 years is revealing. If you were a business owner, would'nt it be great to have Gulfstream 200 as an employee?

General Lee's last post would prompt a headache in any shareholder as the complexity of we will if they, the investment bankers say this, if A then B, but if they do not agree to C, than we can not do A, unless B agrees to C and a fraction of D, I am never going to agree to E. Shoooot, my brain would be mush if I
had to deal with an equation so complex.

While the labor groups and management are waiting for the moons and planets to line up just right before action is taken, Delta will add to its three year 3 Billion dollar loss. While Delta was emassing a 773 million dollar loss in 2003 and recognized the worst financial condition in its 75 year history, the profitable operators where adding to their market share, buying equipment, accumulating cash reserves, etc.

General Lee. Stop worrying so much what managment is going to do with the money and go fly the airplane. While I am sure you are a great aviator, suck it in and trust your management. If the work groups are unable to trust the management to do the right thing without having to bless each time they wipe their a##, then your company is toast.

 

[Bally]

Oh ya Enigma, I forgot this tid bit of flaime bait.

General Lee: "... willing to give up to 20% if you know where your investment is going"...???

Dude, your "giving up a lot of money" is not your investing in Delta. It a correction to managments stupidity for signing off on a contract that IN PART created a financial disaster for Delta.

Your cost per seat mile is over 10 cents. Half of that is labor. Over half of that goes to the pilots. Y'all are over paid. Look at the numbers. Your pay is over 50% greater than the industry average. Unless your FA's are offering BJ's to the pax, those number cannot compete with our friends at JB.

Most pay till the last day is a great bumper sticker.

 

[BoilerUP]

I have no dog in this fight, other to say that I believe the General hasn't done anything to warrant being called out like this. Besides his swipes at the Comair guys and gals, his posts are very logical and backed up by fact. On the other hand, I read this from Bally....

General Lee. Stop worrying so much what managment is going to do with the money and go fly the airplane. While I am sure you are a great aviator, suck it in and trust your management. If the work groups are unable to trust the management to do the right thing without having to bless each time they wipe their a##, then your company is toast.

Please, go tell that to an ex-Braniff, Texas Air, Continental, Eastern, or TWA pilot and find out what they'd say.

Its obvious DALPA is going to have to give concessions, but it is DAL mgmt, not DALPA, that is dragging their feet. I sure wouldn't want 31% of my pay to disappear with no visible, concrete plan of how those "labor savings" are going to save my company. If management can squander and waste $1, they can squander and waste $100 million just the same. I'd want to know where that cash was going, and "golden parachutes" are NOT a valid answer.


Those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it...

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

Oh ya Enigma, I forgot this tid bit of flaime bait.

General Lee: "... willing to give up to 20% if you know where your investment is going"...???

Dude, your "giving up a lot of money" is not your investing in Delta. It a correction to managments stupidity for signing off on a contract that IN PART created a financial disaster for Delta.

Your cost per seat mile is over 10 cents. Half of that is labor. Over half of that goes to the pilots. Y'all are over paid. Look at the numbers. Your pay is over 50% greater than the industry average. Unless your FA's are offering BJ's to the pax, those number cannot compete with our friends at JB.

Most pay till the last day is a great bumper sticker.

How did we go from being happy to put in a hard days work to being pissed that Delta guys make too much??

It's human nature. Look at the boom and bust cycle in this industry. Management does some dumb things and a labor group will have a mob like mentality. Some in the union, usually the bottom 40%, will disagree with where the union is going. As you say don't worry about what management is doing. I would add, IMHO, don't worry about the folly of other pilots.

The example you will set will do more than brow beating those who don't get it.

 

[PSL]

Bally:

In a previous post, it was suggested you fly for SWA. In one of your posts you chided the General to go fly the plane and give some yet to be determined percentage of his pay willingly and trust his management.

I can only assume you have never flown for another 'major' and had your giveback squandered away by a management that was more concerned with 'their paycheck' than the health of the company. Ask the AA pilots what they think of Carty, the USAirways pilots what they think of Colodney, Schoefield, Wolf and now Siegel and tell me the General is being greedy.

And before you start in on me about not understanding the business of aviation, I have one of the AACSB school MBAs just like Leo.

It's easy to trust management when you have one (if you are a SWA pilot) that has demonstrated intelligence and foresight over an exteneded period of time as SWA's has.

The General is not greedy; he is prudent, measured and above all
realistic. I wonder if your opinion of him might change if you witnessed the arrogance and sense of entitlement, some of his management's team demonstrates. You have to remember, the General (I assume you were around for this one) has endured Leo and the 7.5 program that virtually destroyed what was once the premier airline culture in the world.

I would be far more willing to have the General invest a $100.00 of my money than you.

Your romantic vision of flying 'this' line is unrealistic.

If you believe it's labor's responsibility to correct an allegedly 'bad' decision to sign the DALPA proposal, you need to examine the managerial structure at your airline. Not once, have I ever seen a management team reporting to labor who reports to the shareholders. We (the pilots) report to management who is accountable to the shareholders.

I don't have time to fly the airplane, as you suggest, AND manage the company.

My priorities are the safe and efficient use of the airplane when I am up front, and my family when I walk off the deck. Simple.

 

[General Lee]

I really don't remember ever saying "highest pay till the last day." I remember saying that I hoped that we would give some money (not all of our money) to the company and just move forward. Most of the current analysts (like Sam Butrick) agree that Delta should accept a good deal form the pilots now, versus waiting two years for a "perfect contract." Who really is wasting money there? They could have instant savings NOW, versus more savings later--even though AA will be receiving more pay increases as time goes by---and our gap between them narrowing.

Bally---as far as trusting management--you have to earn trust. Leo and his boys have not earned it and have since left the company with a huge loot. We were excited that we would get some "new" leadership (even though Grinstein has been on the board since '89 and he hired Leo)---but lately he has not shown a willingness to NEGOTIATE--since we are the only group with a contract and a union. He cannot treat us like the other groups---we have a contract. Listen up here because I think you are failing to understand me---"WE ARE WILLING TO NEGOTIATE FOR PAY CUTS AND OTEHR CUTS NOW, RIGHT NOW. BUT WE WILL NOT BE TAKEN FOR A RIDE."


Our route of action is the smart thing to do, and I think you know that. We will eventually give up some pay and benies that we have worked hard to amass---and that is fine if it helps the company in the long run---but it will be done as an investment.
You sound like you would like to be in management yourself someday? As far as this thread is concerned, it really is getting redundant---"We want to give up pay---but not get taken." Say that ten times in your head and go get another beer....

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[skykid]

It is hard for me to understand how anybody could view high pay in their chosen profession as bad. It is equally hard for me to understand how folks flying for LCCs hope for the demise of, or some of, the 'legacy' carriers. Neither is good for the future of this profession. If the Delta guys take huge cuts, my bet is it will take decades to see that kind of compensation again. That's not being greedy - it would be nice to be paid for the length of time taken to get to the top. See some of the bigger airlines go, and the higher paying jobs are gone forever. Sure the void will be filled - for less and less compensation. Your LCC doesn't have the only mgt team or CEO genius that can go out and get finacing for new planes and copy the model. It may be hard to get gate agents or FAs to work for even less, but there are thousands of pilots who will do your job at the LCC for lots less. They'll take stock option retirements - which is great until a couple coworkers you don't even know have a 10 second lapse in judgment and the retirement money is all gone. Let's see what Virgin USA pays their pilots - think that will be the bottom - doubt it! I am disappointed the General never admitted turkeys are good flyers with or without the aid of wind, but we need him on that wall! If you don't see why - you can't handle the truth!

 

[Maynard]

???

Thought this was the interview board...my mistake.

 

[skykid]

Great, time for monthly "I thought this was an interview board," post. I hope pilots will be interviewing for Delta sooner rather than later, and for decent wages - there.