Great Lakes Suing Ex-Pilots

[Lebowski]

All current, former, and future Lakers take note:



In the past several months, Great Lakes has sued approximately 20 ex-Lakers based on the “training agreement” that new-hires must sign. Essentially, the training agreement states that if you leave the company within 15 months after completing your initial training, you owe Great Lakes a certain fixed sum. (Per the agreement, the amount is not pro-rated, so supposedly you owe the same amount whether you worked for 1 month or 14 months).



Although Great Lakes has imposed the training agreement on new-hires since Spring 2002, it was never endorsed or approved by the Teamsters Local 747, which represents pilots at Great Lakes. In fact, the Teamsters Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA) is in direct conflict with the training agreement, as it clearly forbids Great Lakes from charging pilots for any training, including initial training.



Earlier this year, the Teamsters filed a grievance with Great Lakes regarding the improper imposition of the training agreement. Arbitration may take place sometime in 2005 (possibly June).



By suing individual pilots, Great Lakes has taken this dispute outside of the arbitration process and into the public courts. If you are a current or former pilot at Great Lakes who may be impacted by the training agreement, I urge you to contact the union and let them know what you think of the training agreement and the tactics the company is using against former employees.



It’s my understanding that Teamsters now have an attorney dedicated to this particular issue, and I’m sure he or she would like to know the status of pilots who have been sued or threatened with legal action.



The contact information for the Teamsters Local 747 is as follows:



(800) 747-2313 ext. 30



Ask to be put in contact with the attorney who is handling the dispute over the training agreement.



Outside of the Teamsters effort, a number of ex-Lakers (myself included) have hired an attorney to represent us in court. I know there are people out there who may not realize that there is an organized effort underway to defeat Great Lakes in this battle. If you haven’t gotten on board yet, now is the time. Spread the word.

 

[Vik]

If you signed the training agreement and then broke the contract, which is legally binding, how do you plan to win the court case? Or have they not sued pilots yet and you're just suing to block the training agreement from being legal [or something like that]?

 

[Standby 1]

I guess my question would be along the same line as Vik, unless of course what you were signing at the time was in some manner concealed or misrepresented. I understand your local didn't approve of this, but I assume your local hasn't approved the current practice of giving away flying lines out of seniority order, junior manning down to 10 days off as a normal monthly occurence, 16 hour hot reserve shifts (used as punishment by sked), etc, etc.

Don't misunderstand -- I'm on your side here (someone very near and dear to me flys there). But why didn't anyone bring this up BEFORE they signed the agreement??






.........

 

[Lebowski]

Vik and Standby1:

Good questions. I'm not a lawyer, so I'll leave the answers up to the attorneys. I also don't want to slam Great Lakes in this forum or go through all the details of my personal dispute with them. I will say that it is not as simple a case for Great Lakes as you might think (i.e., we signed a contract; therefore we lose and they win). There are many problems with that assumption. Again, just one example: The pilot training agreement is in direct conflict with the Teamsters collective bargaining contract. Both are contracts. Which one is more binding?

My main intent of posting here is not to get into a legal discussion. I simply want to get the word out to all Lakers and former Lakers who have concerns about the training agreement and/or getting sued by Great Lakes. The message is this: You are not alone. There are legal resources available, and we are fighting the company from several angles. The leg work has already been done and the fight will continue. You do not have to reinvent the wheel.

Contact the union and speak to either Mr. Sowell or Mr. Flynn. These guys want to hear about it if people are getting sued. They also want to know if you object to the training agreement or the manner in which it was imposed. It's their job to help you from the union standpoint. They also may be able to point you toward some other helpful legal resources outside of the union.

Thanks.

 

[Heavy_D_Driver]

Why Should We Trust the Teamsters?

Why exactly should those of us that are being sued by Great Lakes for the training agreement trust the Teamsters to help us out? The Teamsters did absolutely nothing for us while we were employed by Great Lakes, why would they magically want to help us now that we don't work for Great Lakes and don't pay union dues? The only thing that the Teamsters did for me while I worked at Great Lakes was help themselves to a portion of my already meger paycheck every month, even when I was on probation and not protected by the union.

I find it odd how now the Teamsters seem to be taking issue with this whole training agreement thing. I called, and my lawer called the Teamsters over a month ago trying to talk to someone about this training agreement issue and all we got was the runaround. No one returned our phone calls, and no one that we did talk to have any valuable information regarding the Teamsters stance on this issue.

 

[Vik]

How much is the training contract worth?

For many that have "moved on" it might be cheaper to pay it off than deal with lawyers, courts and after all that the chance they might have to pay it back?

Just a thought .. don't fly for GLA and never have.

 

[Instigator]

Interesting problem.

Something to consider for the sake of argument:

If pilots signed the training agreement while they were in initial training (correct me if it was later, but I have a feeling it was done early in Indoc), they were not covered by the Teamster's CBA. I understand the RLA doesn't consider a pilot an employee for the sake of representation until the completion of initial.

I don't want to blow the case for you guys, so don't respond if you don't want, but I wonder what the union says about that.

 

[Sun Devil 2000]

The Teamsters and Training contracts

Well I may be able to shed a bit of light on this situation. But, what I have to say is not favorable to the lakers. I was at another teamsters represented company that also had a training agreement. As a matter of fact two of them.

Before I begin I'm just posting this to give some info for the people who may be effected by this. I'm not angry about what happend because i moved on to a much bettr place.

I was furloughed once directly after training was completed and then recalled about two months later. At that time I was REQUIRED to sign another (completely different) training contract to keep my job. A few months later the company requested pilots to take pay cuts which were voted down by a 96% vote. The next day proposed furlough notices were sent to the pilots and the union. I had seen the writing on the wall so I had interviews at other carriers already in place. Luckily I got another job but had to wait until i was called for a class date to resign (which ultimated cost me about 9300 bucks). The day that I was hired pending a class the union voted to give wage concessions. Two days later the company recinded their notice of furlough.

So a month passes and I jump ship because I was fed up with management and their games along with some other stuff. So on my way home one day I get a call from the DO informing me that I was responsible for the training bond that I signed. In fact about 7 people turned in their resignation on the same day and we all got the same call (eventhough I was the only one still bound by any agreement).

A bit of past history .. there had been many individuals who left before me who were told "not to worry about the contract." This was based on the fact that the old contract wasnt worth the paper it was written on. But, the new contract (the one that I signed when recalled) was suposedly good. I learned this from the TEAMSTERS who also informed me that I was "THE TEST CASE." I was informed that I should talk to a lawyer and the teamsters would do the same and would help me because it would set a precedence.

So I talked to THREE lawyers and they all said I was out of luck and guess what.. I never hear from the teamsters again. Probably because they knew I was out of luck. I even called them to let them know what I had found out and asked them for help in fighting this. But they never called me back. so because I was in the market for a house and didnt want my credit shot I payed their ransom.

Sorry y'all but unless your training contract is interpreted differently in Wyoming your pretty much out of luck. And dont expect any help from your union.

 

[w4mch]

I'm not a lawyer but am constantly amazed by what a good legal team can get away with. Just ask OJ

Off the top of my head I would argue duress. Gee your honor, I was out of work and this company offered me a job. I was AFRAID they would not give me the job or would somehow fail me in training if I didn't sign their forms.

One time honored trick is to make the cost of collecting the "debt" more than the amount due.

All in all, good luck. As far as being represented on this issue, I would rather be in with the Teamsters than with ALPA. "You weren't at a major legacy carrier when this happened, so we will look the other way" is a typical ALPA response...

 

[TWheat61]

I hope this thread is not true. I am a former Laker that went to another airline because I was furloughed back in June. I know that the contract says that even though I was furloughed I am still liable for the training costs. We were all put on the street in June and they told us not to expect to be called back until December or longer. I didn't have any intention of leaving until they put us on the street.

Anyway if the company wants to play hard ball with the contract, I'm ready to play as well as a number of guys in my class.

Also, there is a guy at my new airline that is getting a class action lawsuit together for all ex-Lakers. The premise is that with the hours we are on duty, we are not even making federal minimum wage. From what he says, it sounds like it's pretty close.

 

[N8Dogg]

You will be held responsible for the training contract even if you are on furlough? What? Were you supposed to go work at McDonalds until they called you back? I hope the teamsters stick it to those crooks!

 

[Lebowski]

FDXFO: Your experience is remarkably similar to those of many of us at Great Lakes. Some people may have been aware of the contract at the time they were interviewed and offered jobs, but many were not. If the company did not disclose--at the original time that you (or we) were offered a job--that a training agreement would later have to be signed, that just seems like a huge problem to me. I'm not saying that pay-for-training contracts cannot be upheld, but when you don't know that's what you're getting into, that's a different story.

Some of us started training, were furloughed, and then later recalled and were told that we must sign the training agreement after starting training a second time if we wanted our jobs. Some of these same people later took a voluntary leave of absence (offered by Great Lakes in lieu of furloughs, of course), and then were sued because they did not come back. It's almost beyond belief.

On top of all of that, Great Lakes withheld the final paycheck from many of us when we departed as payment toward the agreement. My personal opinion is that they should have to prove in court that they have a right to that money before they take it from employees.

My personal opinion aside, there may be some legal defenses against such practices. It's possible that some ex-Lakers may even have a case against Great Lakes.

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

Lebowski AVITAR.....Nobody messes with the Jesus

"So I see you managed to roll your way into the finals. Dios Mio, man!
Leon and me are going to F you up man.
You try any of that bush-league bull sh!t, like flashing your piece out on the lane,
I'll take it away from you and stick it up your a$$ and pull the trigger until it goes click."

 

[Sun Devil 2000]

Good Luck

Well good luck to all the Lakers. I hope that y'all are more successful that I was. It just came down to either paying the contract at the time or possibly having to pay the contract and two sets of lawyers (mine and theirs). And since I wasnt offerend any help from the Teamsters I took the hit.

 

[Lebowski]

TWheat61:

If you or anyone in your class is concerned about getting sued, you should send me a private message. I'll forward you contact information for an attorney who is already familiar with the situation and who is working to represent us all. Do yourself a favor and at least contact the attorney so you're put on the list. Giving him your name and contact information will cost you nothing, and it will put you in a much better position should you get sued. It might even prevent it altogether.

Get involved while there's a movement to end this practice right now. It seems to me that it will be cheaper and smarter for everyone to be proactive about this now and take advantage of the momentum going right now.

In my experience with this situation, it seems like no one wants to do anything until they're sued. They just wait and hope it will go away. Then, once you get sued, you feel screwed. You feel vulnerable because you are getting sued as an individual and everyone else who hasn't been sued doesn't really care if it hasn't affected them--yet.

Don't let Lakes have the advantage of dividing us. They are more or less using the same lawsuit over and over again. As ex-Lakers, we are stronger together than apart. No one should have to fight this on their own. We need to fight this as a group.