Great lakes furloughs.... $ for approach charts

[Vavso]

I am wondering if they furloughed so they can finally buy the F.O.'s there own charts and app plates. "Borrowing "the captains so you can brief the approach and make notes about the approach plate on your TOLD card is archaic! Yes folks you get no charts as an F.O. !

 

[CX880]

I am wondering if they furloughed so they can finally buy the F.O.'s there own charts and app plates. "Borrowing "the captains so you can brief the approach and make notes about the approach plate on your TOLD card is archaic! Yes folks you get no charts as an F.O. !

Please tell me you're joking?

 

[flynryan15]

If this is true someone needs to post this on the ABCNES.COM blog!

 

[Salukipilot4590]

Please tell me you're joking?

I dont think he's kidding brah...

 

[SEVEN]

Please tell me you're joking?

That's why they call them Great Lakes Mistakes.

 

[glasspilot]

From a previous thread I guess that's why they're such awesome pilots! They fly the fricken approach with NO PLATES! Now that is good! Bet is saves the company enough to buy a coffee machine every two weeks!

 

[crj567]

Hell's Yeah-

Why worry with plates? These guys are like "Chuck Norris Awesome!"

-Chuck don't worry with plates-if there is no runway where he wants one, he will just roundhouse kick a new one into the forest-at the precise moment of
touchdown!

 

[Northern Lights]

Wow! I didn't know that anyone still flew like this. I believe that this was one of the problems of the Hibbing Jetstream crash in 1993. The FO had no plates, and the captain plowed through the MDA trying to stay out of ice.

 

[Vavso]

The truth shall set you free

Hi Yall this is fact . You are hand flying approaches with no auto pilot SOME FO sides have flight directors You brief the approach scribble notes from it onto a TOLD card and give it back to him .You then work as a team to fly the approach while he refers to the plate .

You have responsibilites that boggle the mind prior to taking off into the air and have very little time between turns to get things done including loading pax, pre flighting ,clearances , FA type duties , supervising baggage loading and to make matters worse verifying drift downs on the release are accurate using a pen and calculator via manual calculations sometimes all in 10 minutes time . Not to mention no lav on the 1900

NO SIC type rating - NO high altitude endorsement !

BOTTOM LINE :they will always find some fresh CFI with a wet CFI certificate looking for that "quick upgrade " and to wind up in a jet eventually which in reality is a very difficult mountain to climb. The dream of quick upgrade is a hard road to hoe possibly a fallacy .

Pilot community at GLA - great guys - hard working talented
Training department - great guys too

I have already said to much but I speak nothing but the truth

 

[flynryan15]

Hi Yall this is fact . You are hand flying approaches with no auto pilot SOME FO sides have flight directors You brief the approach scribble notes from it onto a TOLD card and give it back to him .You then work as a team to fly the approach while he refers to the plate .

You have responsibilites that boggle the mind prior to taking off into the air and have very little time between turns to get things done including loading pax, pre flighting ,clearances , FA type duties , supervising baggage loading and to make matters worse verifying drift downs on the release are accurate using a pen and calculator via manual calculations sometimes all in 10 minutes time . Not to mention no lav on the 1900

NO SIC type rating - NO high altitude endorsement !

BOTTOM LINE :they will always find some fresh CFI with a wet CFI certificate looking for that "quick upgrade " and to wind up in a jet eventually which in reality is a very difficult mountain to climb. The dream of quick upgrade is a hard road to hoe possibly a fallacy .

Pilot community at GLA - great guys - hard working talented
Training department - great guys too

I have already said to much but I speak nothing but the truth

WOW just WOW!!! Add to that pay your way to the interview, no pay in training, pay your own lodging in training and 15 bucks and hr. I just threw up in my mouth!!! uke:

Serious how do you hand fly the arrival and departure? Does the Captain constantly call things out to you? Talk about increased work load!!!

 

[flynd94]

Yes, FO's don't have plates. What's the big deal? Review the plate and, carry on. Also, what's wrong with flying with no auto pilot? Did it when I was a freight dawg. Is it unsafe for all the freight guys flying chieftains or BE99?

Flyran15, let me guess you were one of the FO's I heard about at Xjet. 400ft, auto pilot ON, 200ft auto pilot OFF? I heard all about those dudes when I was there from other CA's. Afraid to hand fly, heaven forbid you turned off the FD and, went raw data.

Also, not all of your facts are correct. Yes, no pay during training, no per diem during training, they will fly you out if the city is served by GLA, we do get our rooms paid during training.

I am prepared for the flame but, it must be a slow day for the GLA bashing to begin again. None of what was posted is "new" news, been like that for awhile. That's why I am actively involved in our new union and, trying to effect changes.

PS Mesa Sucks (maybe that will get another thread started)

 

[Vavso]

Dont kill the messenger ...

As expected I made it clear that I hold GLA pilots in high regard that being said I know /knew I would ruffle someones feathers .

Flying without approach plates can be done and is done but come on . Tell me you would not prefer your own set . What happens if the Captain craps out and now you gotta rummage around for the plates , hand fly and manage a 1900 . with 19 people in back ....seems like a major work load just made larger . I know some guys CAN fly the 1900 single pilot from the LEFT SEAT without PAx on board . But who wants to do that under a worst case scenario right seat without access to charts .

Hopefully when the union situation is done they can bargain for a set charts for the fo .Might be nice to review on your layover the night before a trip .

As far as transportation If you live in a state serviced by GLA you get free travel .. That One guy failed out of indoc got a flight to DEN then told he had to get to STL ON HIS OWN even though they serviced STL was pretty shabby .


Lodging paid for ( double occupancy ) I think sub mariners had more bunk space .Room 10 feet by 15 feet very conduscive to studying .No extra charge for the garbage man waking everyone up at 620 am banging the trash containers around . 6 days a week I actually think he did it on purpose .

 

[Vavso]

In defense of Flyn ryan

Nothing wrong with using automation .I am sure if the 1900 had it you would be using it . And its 600 feet a/p on on the crj .Great thing an a/p .I have seen plenty of guys hand fly the crj up to altitude .Then again they are not doing 6-9 legs a day . Fatigue factor is one reason having an A/P is actually safer.

When you were a fr8 dog how many legs did you do and how long was your duty day ?? out of curiosity .

 

[flynryan15]

Yes, FO's don't have plates. What's the big deal? Review the plate and, carry on. Also, what's wrong with flying with no auto pilot? Did it when I was a freight dawg. Is it unsafe for all the freight guys flying chieftains or BE99?

Flyran15, let me guess you were one of the FO's I heard about at Xjet. 400ft, auto pilot ON, 200ft auto pilot OFF? I heard all about those dudes when I was there from other CA's. Afraid to hand fly, heaven forbid you turned off the FD and, went raw data.

Also, not all of your facts are correct. Yes, no pay during training, no per diem during training, they will fly you out if the city is served by GLA, we do get our rooms paid during training.

I am prepared for the flame but, it must be a slow day for the GLA bashing to begin again. None of what was posted is "new" news, been like that for awhile. That's why I am actively involved in our new union and, trying to effect changes.

PS Mesa Sucks (maybe that will get another thread started)

Wrong I came from surveying and mapping in Aztecs and Navajoes so I hand flew a lot at Expressjet! The majority of the time under 10000 unless something was going on that would dictate using the AP. Anytime I went to Leon, Saltio, Monclova, etc I hand flew every arc. I hand flew every approach, I never once rode the AP to the FAF, not to mention a few raw data approaches into IAH on foggy mornings. So those FO's you heard about most definitely weren't me! Thanks for the assumption though you know what they say about it!

Yes in 2009 and it absolutely ridiculous that the First Officer is not issued a set of approach plates! Use whatever excuses you want to justify it, but flying Non-Precision approaches in the Rockies is not the ideal situation for increased workloads! Seriously look what happened to American in Cali and both pilots had plates. Not to mention how do you know every Captain does his revisions? I could go on all night listing reasons as to why both pilots need a current set of plates. On the other hand the only reason I can come up with one reason for one set of plates and that is CHEAP!!!

My reference to the hand flying without plates was simply that it would be damn nice to be able to look down and reference crossing restrictions, headings at intersections, frequencies at the next vor, headings on approaches, crossing restrictions and several other vital pieces of information that are critical to safety of flight!

If you flew at ExpressJet then you probably know the Jeps we were issued run 1000 a set. Now that was for over 150 destinations in Mexico, Bahamas, New Foundland, Canada, Guatemala, and the USA. Seriously how much could a set for 59 destinations in the midwest cost? You only have a 160ish first officers? Even if you paid what XJT does it is 160,000 dollars a year, seems like a minor investment to have redundancy in the cockpit.

Since you chose to attack me, I am going to attack you right back. The last quality I would ever want in a union rep or someone that is involved in the union trying to make a change, is someone justifying a company being cheap! If you can't see what the big deal is that both pilots are afforded the same tools to make their jobs easier and the passengers safer. Well then I most surely would not want you speaking for me or my pilot group at the negotiating table.

This is 2009, not 1960 and the First Officer is an active member of the flight crew! He or she should have every resource available to insure safety of fight! Ask yourself this if they are skimping on this, what else are they skimping on? Could you imagine the field day the NTSB and press would of had last week during the Colgan hearings if they found out the pilots were playing pass the approach plate?

I know people will flame away and tell me how in charter, 135, 91 and other ops they only have one set of plates. Well in this day and age in a 121 operation there should be 2 sets, after all redundancy is safety.

As far as having the wrong facts about paying for your hotel I do apologize.

One last thing this is not a attack on the Great Lakes Pilot Group! I believe you guys do a hell of a job, you do it with little resources from the company, and in the most challenging terrain in the United States. My vent is directed at the types of companies that operate like this and the individual that accused me riding the autopilot!

 

[CX880]

All this macho BS is just that BS. Any monkey can hand fly a 1900 all you need is some practice and getting used to. Like driving stick shift. The problem is that one cold night at the 14 hour makr when you've had enough with the wx at mins. What happens if the CA has the wrong numbers from the sole app plate and you make a smoking hole on a mountain side or about a mile short of the runway because you didn't bother to check the mins as well? Unbelievable, now I've heard it all at GL. How can you fly an approach with no approach plate and how can the CA monitor an approach by not having his approach plate infront of him? Does the FAA know??

 

[Max Q]

GL has been getting away with it, right?

Who's really to blame?

 

[Sky Jet]

Ya know, I would always prefer to have my own plate but single plate is do-able. At my previous airline we moved large jets and heavies all around the world to places many people could not pronounce let alone find on a map. We carried one set of world charts on the plane. There simply was not room for more charts especially on the 727/737. Was it a safe as two charts? No. But it was not an accident waiting to happen either. You just had to have a good briefing and procedures. On another note, I flew the 1900 for 8700 hours, "back in the day". Any marginally competent pilot can fly a good approach in that airplane without a flight director. I flew them all, A (only one built), B,C,D and E (military) sometimes up to 14 legs in a day. It was hard work and at times not safe because of long duty days, but I will never be that good of a pilot again. I love that airplane.

Jet

 

[HoserASA]

About 17-18 years ago, at Anniston Al, an airline crashed (don't recall the name) when they went MA off the LOC 05 and didn't make a turn to avoid terrain. The 1900 (I think) hit a small mountain instead. I believe the final report mentioned that this particular airline also had the one set of plates onboard policy. If I recall the FO was flying and didn't have the MA down, or the CA failed to give it to the FO in time, and they didn't turn when they were supposed to.

Hoser
Roll Tide!

 

[Cornelius]

If I remember correctly, the callouts during approaches at GLA were set up so the the pilots would basically talk their way through it so both pilots were in the loop. A lot of captains would also laminate all the departures, arrivals, & 10-9s for DEN and put them within easy reach for the FO. I concluded having one set of plates does indeed make it more difficult since you have to memorize a lot of stuff and there are more callouts. Having 2 sets of plates would made it much easier.

Funny story, flying the Emb-120 into Casper and we actually had to shoot an approach which was rare, the Captain forgot to take his plates out of his flight case which was in the very back of the airplane under a seat. I had to call the FA to grab his flight case and bring them up to us. Back then we only flew to CPR and CYS out of Denver so things got quiet complacent since it was like groundhog day.

By the way, I quit lakes because no matter how senior you got, your schedule would always suck and the jr manning was relentless.

 

[jumppilot1000]

Why not spend a few hours with a good copy machine and make yourself a set? Copyright infringement? Too much work to trim them and punch the holes just right?

 

[Jetpipeovht]

About 17-18 years ago, at Anniston Al, an airline crashed (don't recall the name) when they went MA off the LOC 05 and didn't make a turn to avoid terrain. The 1900 (I think) hit a small mountain instead. I believe the final report mentioned that this particular airline also had the one set of plates onboard policy. If I recall the FO was flying and didn't have the MA down, or the CA failed to give it to the FO in time, and they didn't turn when they were supposed to.

Hoser
Roll Tide!

It was GP Express flying a BE99C. It was a EAS route between Anniston and ATL.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19920608-0


As for no plates for FO's at GLA: Look at the bright side. NO REVISIONS!

 

[ajh883s]

Why not spend a few hours with a good copy machine and make yourself a set? Copyright infringement? Too much work to trim them and punch the holes just right?

Just print them off the internet for free---

http://www.naco.faa.gov/index.asp?xml=naco/online/d_tpp


granted they're NACO, but still $0---

 

[airplane wizard]

Sounds like great lakes has a ********************ty operation and are a bunch of cheap asses. I am glad I don't fly for them.

 

[Cardinal]

As a current Lakes captain, I have a question: Where are you gonna put another set of plates? Seriously? Right now we're supposed to keep the following handy:

Jepps (4 inches)
Performance Manual Vol I (3 inches)
Performance Manual Vol II (3 inches)
QRH (1 inch)
FOM (3 inches)
FSM (3 inches)
TAWS manual (1 inch)
Aircraft Logbook

Less than half of that fits in the designated spot in the pedestal, the rest is shoved in any other nook or cranny to be found, behind seats, underneath short aviatrix's etc.

The connection between our furloughs and the Jepps is obvious flamebait, the reason we furloughed is because our leadership has the foresight of a three-toed sloth.

In know way am I defending the company, when my airline issued me plates as an FO I definitely felt more in the loop. It's cheapness, period, and our useless feds would rather persecute us for penny-ante administrative BS than fix real issues.

Further vavso, In reviewing your previous posts, you've discussed training problems in not one but two 121 initial programs. I don't think approach plates are the crux of the matter. I'm sorry it didn't work out here, we flush alot of good guys. Best of luck going forward.

Thus far in the thread no Lakes pilot has exhibited any chest-thumping machismo, let's keep it that way gentlemen.

 

[Vavso]

thanks

Further vavso, In reviewing your previous posts, you've discussed training problems in not one but two 121 initial programs. I don't think approach plates are the crux of the matter. I'm sorry it didn't work out here, we flush alot of good guys. Best of luck going forward.

No chest thumping just some cheap shots right ??

Thats a swell thing to drag up my previous 121 experiences . Save your back handed compliments for someone else . How dare you use the term Flushing in my case you do not know me or my circumstances at GLA. If you want to know more PM me we will talk then I give you permission to ask my sim instructor about my training event and why I left . Good thing for me I did or I would have been let go like everyone else was recently . call it a 6th sense .

Furthermore
This is the thanks I get for discussing a companies procedure while holding line pilots and trainers in a very high regard . I still say GLa pilots are top notch aviators unfortunately you need to learn about human interaction . Posting that crap on line was low and inexcusable . As a matter of fact it borders on defamation of character .

Classy guy you are .

I think you are sucking up to corporate GLA because your a Frontier Furloughee happy to be taken back by GLA . Am I right ???

 

[flynryan15]

As a current Lakes captain, I have a question: Where are you gonna put another set of plates? Seriously? Right now we're supposed to keep the following handy:

Jepps (4 inches)
Performance Manual Vol I (3 inches)
Performance Manual Vol II (3 inches)
QRH (1 inch)
FOM (3 inches)
FSM (3 inches)
TAWS manual (1 inch)
Aircraft Logbook

Less than half of that fits in the designated spot in the pedestal, the rest is shoved in any other nook or cranny to be found, behind seats, underneath short aviatrix's etc.

The connection between our furloughs and the Jepps is obvious flamebait, the reason we furloughed is because our leadership has the foresight of a three-toed sloth.

In know way am I defending the company, when my airline issued me plates as an FO I definitely felt more in the loop. It's cheapness, period, and our useless feds would rather persecute us for penny-ante administrative BS than fix real issues.

Further vavso, In reviewing your previous posts, you've discussed training problems in not one but two 121 initial programs. I don't think approach plates are the crux of the matter. I'm sorry it didn't work out here, we flush alot of good guys. Best of luck going forward.

Thus far in the thread no Lakes pilot has exhibited any chest-thumping machismo, let's keep it that way gentlemen.

The plates at XJT took up 3 2 inch binders alone. You can get it to fit in a chart case.

 

[flynd94]

The plates at XJT took up 3 2 inch binders alone. You can get it to fit in a chart case.

What he is trying to say is we don't keep our brain bags (flight cases) in the cockpit with us. We have no room. We have a box at the end of the center pedestal which we have to store our books in. WE have to fit all of the stuff he mentioned. The FOM and FSM are usually stored behind the crew seats.

You thought the 145 cockpit was small, come see a beech

 

[Captainzero1]

Nothing wrong with using automation .I am sure if the 1900 had it you would be using it . And its 600 feet a/p on on the crj .Great thing an a/p .I have seen plenty of guys hand fly the crj up to altitude .Then again they are not doing 6-9 legs a day . Fatigue factor is one reason having an A/P is actually safer.

When you were a fr8 dog how many legs did you do and how long was your duty day ?? out of curiosity .

Hand flying a jet to the flight levels is not hard dude, now when the automation craps out, that's hard.

 

[flynd94]

Vavso,

I flew for AMF out of OAK. My favorite route to fly was OAK-CIC-RDD-1O5 go hang out at the crew apartment. The afternoon was 1O5-RDD-CIC-MYV-SAC-OAK. That's 9 legs a day, 5 days a week. On an avg VMC day that was 4-5 hours of flying. If it was IMC anywhere from 6-9 hours. My worst was 8.9 hours, with 9 approaches, 2 holds. My show was around 0700 and, my day was done at 2000. I did have a break from 1030-1700. I didn't have any type of autopilot of flight director in the Chieftain. When I left AMF my flying skills were at their peak. My skills degraded flying the ERJ-145 at Express Jet. They are slowly getting back to that level.

BTW, ERJ-145/135 limitation for AP was ON at 400ft, OFF at 200ft (150ft if CATII). If you review my first post, I was directing my response at a fellow Xjet furloughee.

Sorry, you have washed out of 2 training programs. Remember some people aren't cut out for this line of work.

 

[Vavso]

Whatever you think about me , my career and "alledged washouts". You should think twice before you judge anyone . Maybe you need to know facts before assuming anything . I never washed out of training anywhere friend . As far as being cut out for something I probably have more actual SEL hard IFR than most people and am very good at it . Probably more than you . Also something many people would not even consider doing . The only thing preventing me from career progression is the economy . Plain and simple .

The point of my initial post which started out was a light hearted comment with truth to it.The facts as stated about GLA are all facts documented but maybe not known by many If you want to turn those facts around by besmerching me have at it . It does not change the facts .

I thought this board was to share knowledge and help others out not a place to bash people you do not even know . Maybe you should re read the whole thread . Maybe you missed something .

The sad part is that those posts I made back when were made at a tough time in my life. Many if not all were supportive of my situation. You apparently never sustained any dissapointment in your life or else you are perfect . Whatever the case I think some time for self reflection might not be a bad idea .