Great lakes furloughs.... $ for approach charts

[Max Q]

GL has been getting away with it, right?

Who's really to blame?

 

[Sky Jet]

Ya know, I would always prefer to have my own plate but single plate is do-able. At my previous airline we moved large jets and heavies all around the world to places many people could not pronounce let alone find on a map. We carried one set of world charts on the plane. There simply was not room for more charts especially on the 727/737. Was it a safe as two charts? No. But it was not an accident waiting to happen either. You just had to have a good briefing and procedures. On another note, I flew the 1900 for 8700 hours, "back in the day". Any marginally competent pilot can fly a good approach in that airplane without a flight director. I flew them all, A (only one built), B,C,D and E (military) sometimes up to 14 legs in a day. It was hard work and at times not safe because of long duty days, but I will never be that good of a pilot again. I love that airplane.

Jet

 

[HoserASA]

About 17-18 years ago, at Anniston Al, an airline crashed (don't recall the name) when they went MA off the LOC 05 and didn't make a turn to avoid terrain. The 1900 (I think) hit a small mountain instead. I believe the final report mentioned that this particular airline also had the one set of plates onboard policy. If I recall the FO was flying and didn't have the MA down, or the CA failed to give it to the FO in time, and they didn't turn when they were supposed to.

Hoser
Roll Tide!

 

[Cornelius]

If I remember correctly, the callouts during approaches at GLA were set up so the the pilots would basically talk their way through it so both pilots were in the loop. A lot of captains would also laminate all the departures, arrivals, & 10-9s for DEN and put them within easy reach for the FO. I concluded having one set of plates does indeed make it more difficult since you have to memorize a lot of stuff and there are more callouts. Having 2 sets of plates would made it much easier.

Funny story, flying the Emb-120 into Casper and we actually had to shoot an approach which was rare, the Captain forgot to take his plates out of his flight case which was in the very back of the airplane under a seat. I had to call the FA to grab his flight case and bring them up to us. Back then we only flew to CPR and CYS out of Denver so things got quiet complacent since it was like groundhog day.

By the way, I quit lakes because no matter how senior you got, your schedule would always suck and the jr manning was relentless.

 

[jumppilot1000]

Why not spend a few hours with a good copy machine and make yourself a set? Copyright infringement? Too much work to trim them and punch the holes just right?

 

[Jetpipeovht]

About 17-18 years ago, at Anniston Al, an airline crashed (don't recall the name) when they went MA off the LOC 05 and didn't make a turn to avoid terrain. The 1900 (I think) hit a small mountain instead. I believe the final report mentioned that this particular airline also had the one set of plates onboard policy. If I recall the FO was flying and didn't have the MA down, or the CA failed to give it to the FO in time, and they didn't turn when they were supposed to.

Hoser
Roll Tide!

It was GP Express flying a BE99C. It was a EAS route between Anniston and ATL.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19920608-0


As for no plates for FO's at GLA: Look at the bright side. NO REVISIONS!

 

[ajh883s]

Why not spend a few hours with a good copy machine and make yourself a set? Copyright infringement? Too much work to trim them and punch the holes just right?

Just print them off the internet for free---

http://www.naco.faa.gov/index.asp?xml=naco/online/d_tpp


granted they're NACO, but still $0---

 

[airplane wizard]

Sounds like great lakes has a ********************ty operation and are a bunch of cheap asses. I am glad I don't fly for them.

 

[Cardinal]

As a current Lakes captain, I have a question: Where are you gonna put another set of plates? Seriously? Right now we're supposed to keep the following handy:

Jepps (4 inches)
Performance Manual Vol I (3 inches)
Performance Manual Vol II (3 inches)
QRH (1 inch)
FOM (3 inches)
FSM (3 inches)
TAWS manual (1 inch)
Aircraft Logbook

Less than half of that fits in the designated spot in the pedestal, the rest is shoved in any other nook or cranny to be found, behind seats, underneath short aviatrix's etc.

The connection between our furloughs and the Jepps is obvious flamebait, the reason we furloughed is because our leadership has the foresight of a three-toed sloth.

In know way am I defending the company, when my airline issued me plates as an FO I definitely felt more in the loop. It's cheapness, period, and our useless feds would rather persecute us for penny-ante administrative BS than fix real issues.

Further vavso, In reviewing your previous posts, you've discussed training problems in not one but two 121 initial programs. I don't think approach plates are the crux of the matter. I'm sorry it didn't work out here, we flush alot of good guys. Best of luck going forward.

Thus far in the thread no Lakes pilot has exhibited any chest-thumping machismo, let's keep it that way gentlemen.

 

[Vavso]

thanks

Further vavso, In reviewing your previous posts, you've discussed training problems in not one but two 121 initial programs. I don't think approach plates are the crux of the matter. I'm sorry it didn't work out here, we flush alot of good guys. Best of luck going forward.

No chest thumping just some cheap shots right ??

Thats a swell thing to drag up my previous 121 experiences . Save your back handed compliments for someone else . How dare you use the term Flushing in my case you do not know me or my circumstances at GLA. If you want to know more PM me we will talk then I give you permission to ask my sim instructor about my training event and why I left . Good thing for me I did or I would have been let go like everyone else was recently . call it a 6th sense .

Furthermore
This is the thanks I get for discussing a companies procedure while holding line pilots and trainers in a very high regard . I still say GLa pilots are top notch aviators unfortunately you need to learn about human interaction . Posting that crap on line was low and inexcusable . As a matter of fact it borders on defamation of character .

Classy guy you are .

I think you are sucking up to corporate GLA because your a Frontier Furloughee happy to be taken back by GLA . Am I right ???

 

[flynryan15]

As a current Lakes captain, I have a question: Where are you gonna put another set of plates? Seriously? Right now we're supposed to keep the following handy:

Jepps (4 inches)
Performance Manual Vol I (3 inches)
Performance Manual Vol II (3 inches)
QRH (1 inch)
FOM (3 inches)
FSM (3 inches)
TAWS manual (1 inch)
Aircraft Logbook

Less than half of that fits in the designated spot in the pedestal, the rest is shoved in any other nook or cranny to be found, behind seats, underneath short aviatrix's etc.

The connection between our furloughs and the Jepps is obvious flamebait, the reason we furloughed is because our leadership has the foresight of a three-toed sloth.

In know way am I defending the company, when my airline issued me plates as an FO I definitely felt more in the loop. It's cheapness, period, and our useless feds would rather persecute us for penny-ante administrative BS than fix real issues.

Further vavso, In reviewing your previous posts, you've discussed training problems in not one but two 121 initial programs. I don't think approach plates are the crux of the matter. I'm sorry it didn't work out here, we flush alot of good guys. Best of luck going forward.

Thus far in the thread no Lakes pilot has exhibited any chest-thumping machismo, let's keep it that way gentlemen.

The plates at XJT took up 3 2 inch binders alone. You can get it to fit in a chart case.

 

[flynd94]

The plates at XJT took up 3 2 inch binders alone. You can get it to fit in a chart case.

What he is trying to say is we don't keep our brain bags (flight cases) in the cockpit with us. We have no room. We have a box at the end of the center pedestal which we have to store our books in. WE have to fit all of the stuff he mentioned. The FOM and FSM are usually stored behind the crew seats.

You thought the 145 cockpit was small, come see a beech

 

[Captainzero1]

Nothing wrong with using automation .I am sure if the 1900 had it you would be using it . And its 600 feet a/p on on the crj .Great thing an a/p .I have seen plenty of guys hand fly the crj up to altitude .Then again they are not doing 6-9 legs a day . Fatigue factor is one reason having an A/P is actually safer.

When you were a fr8 dog how many legs did you do and how long was your duty day ?? out of curiosity .

Hand flying a jet to the flight levels is not hard dude, now when the automation craps out, that's hard.

 

[flynd94]

Vavso,

I flew for AMF out of OAK. My favorite route to fly was OAK-CIC-RDD-1O5 go hang out at the crew apartment. The afternoon was 1O5-RDD-CIC-MYV-SAC-OAK. That's 9 legs a day, 5 days a week. On an avg VMC day that was 4-5 hours of flying. If it was IMC anywhere from 6-9 hours. My worst was 8.9 hours, with 9 approaches, 2 holds. My show was around 0700 and, my day was done at 2000. I did have a break from 1030-1700. I didn't have any type of autopilot of flight director in the Chieftain. When I left AMF my flying skills were at their peak. My skills degraded flying the ERJ-145 at Express Jet. They are slowly getting back to that level.

BTW, ERJ-145/135 limitation for AP was ON at 400ft, OFF at 200ft (150ft if CATII). If you review my first post, I was directing my response at a fellow Xjet furloughee.

Sorry, you have washed out of 2 training programs. Remember some people aren't cut out for this line of work.

 

[Vavso]

Whatever you think about me , my career and "alledged washouts". You should think twice before you judge anyone . Maybe you need to know facts before assuming anything . I never washed out of training anywhere friend . As far as being cut out for something I probably have more actual SEL hard IFR than most people and am very good at it . Probably more than you . Also something many people would not even consider doing . The only thing preventing me from career progression is the economy . Plain and simple .

The point of my initial post which started out was a light hearted comment with truth to it.The facts as stated about GLA are all facts documented but maybe not known by many If you want to turn those facts around by besmerching me have at it . It does not change the facts .

I thought this board was to share knowledge and help others out not a place to bash people you do not even know . Maybe you should re read the whole thread . Maybe you missed something .

The sad part is that those posts I made back when were made at a tough time in my life. Many if not all were supportive of my situation. You apparently never sustained any dissapointment in your life or else you are perfect . Whatever the case I think some time for self reflection might not be a bad idea .