Great lakes furloughs.... $ for approach charts

[Jetpipeovht]

About 17-18 years ago, at Anniston Al, an airline crashed (don't recall the name) when they went MA off the LOC 05 and didn't make a turn to avoid terrain. The 1900 (I think) hit a small mountain instead. I believe the final report mentioned that this particular airline also had the one set of plates onboard policy. If I recall the FO was flying and didn't have the MA down, or the CA failed to give it to the FO in time, and they didn't turn when they were supposed to.

Hoser
Roll Tide!

It was GP Express flying a BE99C. It was a EAS route between Anniston and ATL.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19920608-0


As for no plates for FO's at GLA: Look at the bright side. NO REVISIONS!

 

[ajh883s]

Why not spend a few hours with a good copy machine and make yourself a set? Copyright infringement? Too much work to trim them and punch the holes just right?

Just print them off the internet for free---

http://www.naco.faa.gov/index.asp?xml=naco/online/d_tpp


granted they're NACO, but still $0---

 

[airplane wizard]

Sounds like great lakes has a ********************ty operation and are a bunch of cheap asses. I am glad I don't fly for them.

 

[Cardinal]

As a current Lakes captain, I have a question: Where are you gonna put another set of plates? Seriously? Right now we're supposed to keep the following handy:

Jepps (4 inches)
Performance Manual Vol I (3 inches)
Performance Manual Vol II (3 inches)
QRH (1 inch)
FOM (3 inches)
FSM (3 inches)
TAWS manual (1 inch)
Aircraft Logbook

Less than half of that fits in the designated spot in the pedestal, the rest is shoved in any other nook or cranny to be found, behind seats, underneath short aviatrix's etc.

The connection between our furloughs and the Jepps is obvious flamebait, the reason we furloughed is because our leadership has the foresight of a three-toed sloth.

In know way am I defending the company, when my airline issued me plates as an FO I definitely felt more in the loop. It's cheapness, period, and our useless feds would rather persecute us for penny-ante administrative BS than fix real issues.

Further vavso, In reviewing your previous posts, you've discussed training problems in not one but two 121 initial programs. I don't think approach plates are the crux of the matter. I'm sorry it didn't work out here, we flush alot of good guys. Best of luck going forward.

Thus far in the thread no Lakes pilot has exhibited any chest-thumping machismo, let's keep it that way gentlemen.

 

[Vavso]

thanks

Further vavso, In reviewing your previous posts, you've discussed training problems in not one but two 121 initial programs. I don't think approach plates are the crux of the matter. I'm sorry it didn't work out here, we flush alot of good guys. Best of luck going forward.

No chest thumping just some cheap shots right ??

Thats a swell thing to drag up my previous 121 experiences . Save your back handed compliments for someone else . How dare you use the term Flushing in my case you do not know me or my circumstances at GLA. If you want to know more PM me we will talk then I give you permission to ask my sim instructor about my training event and why I left . Good thing for me I did or I would have been let go like everyone else was recently . call it a 6th sense .

Furthermore
This is the thanks I get for discussing a companies procedure while holding line pilots and trainers in a very high regard . I still say GLa pilots are top notch aviators unfortunately you need to learn about human interaction . Posting that crap on line was low and inexcusable . As a matter of fact it borders on defamation of character .

Classy guy you are .

I think you are sucking up to corporate GLA because your a Frontier Furloughee happy to be taken back by GLA . Am I right ???

 

[flynryan15]

As a current Lakes captain, I have a question: Where are you gonna put another set of plates? Seriously? Right now we're supposed to keep the following handy:

Jepps (4 inches)
Performance Manual Vol I (3 inches)
Performance Manual Vol II (3 inches)
QRH (1 inch)
FOM (3 inches)
FSM (3 inches)
TAWS manual (1 inch)
Aircraft Logbook

Less than half of that fits in the designated spot in the pedestal, the rest is shoved in any other nook or cranny to be found, behind seats, underneath short aviatrix's etc.

The connection between our furloughs and the Jepps is obvious flamebait, the reason we furloughed is because our leadership has the foresight of a three-toed sloth.

In know way am I defending the company, when my airline issued me plates as an FO I definitely felt more in the loop. It's cheapness, period, and our useless feds would rather persecute us for penny-ante administrative BS than fix real issues.

Further vavso, In reviewing your previous posts, you've discussed training problems in not one but two 121 initial programs. I don't think approach plates are the crux of the matter. I'm sorry it didn't work out here, we flush alot of good guys. Best of luck going forward.

Thus far in the thread no Lakes pilot has exhibited any chest-thumping machismo, let's keep it that way gentlemen.

The plates at XJT took up 3 2 inch binders alone. You can get it to fit in a chart case.

 

[flynd94]

The plates at XJT took up 3 2 inch binders alone. You can get it to fit in a chart case.

What he is trying to say is we don't keep our brain bags (flight cases) in the cockpit with us. We have no room. We have a box at the end of the center pedestal which we have to store our books in. WE have to fit all of the stuff he mentioned. The FOM and FSM are usually stored behind the crew seats.

You thought the 145 cockpit was small, come see a beech

 

[Captainzero1]

Nothing wrong with using automation .I am sure if the 1900 had it you would be using it . And its 600 feet a/p on on the crj .Great thing an a/p .I have seen plenty of guys hand fly the crj up to altitude .Then again they are not doing 6-9 legs a day . Fatigue factor is one reason having an A/P is actually safer.

When you were a fr8 dog how many legs did you do and how long was your duty day ?? out of curiosity .

Hand flying a jet to the flight levels is not hard dude, now when the automation craps out, that's hard.

 

[flynd94]

Vavso,

I flew for AMF out of OAK. My favorite route to fly was OAK-CIC-RDD-1O5 go hang out at the crew apartment. The afternoon was 1O5-RDD-CIC-MYV-SAC-OAK. That's 9 legs a day, 5 days a week. On an avg VMC day that was 4-5 hours of flying. If it was IMC anywhere from 6-9 hours. My worst was 8.9 hours, with 9 approaches, 2 holds. My show was around 0700 and, my day was done at 2000. I did have a break from 1030-1700. I didn't have any type of autopilot of flight director in the Chieftain. When I left AMF my flying skills were at their peak. My skills degraded flying the ERJ-145 at Express Jet. They are slowly getting back to that level.

BTW, ERJ-145/135 limitation for AP was ON at 400ft, OFF at 200ft (150ft if CATII). If you review my first post, I was directing my response at a fellow Xjet furloughee.

Sorry, you have washed out of 2 training programs. Remember some people aren't cut out for this line of work.

 

[Vavso]

Whatever you think about me , my career and "alledged washouts". You should think twice before you judge anyone . Maybe you need to know facts before assuming anything . I never washed out of training anywhere friend . As far as being cut out for something I probably have more actual SEL hard IFR than most people and am very good at it . Probably more than you . Also something many people would not even consider doing . The only thing preventing me from career progression is the economy . Plain and simple .

The point of my initial post which started out was a light hearted comment with truth to it.The facts as stated about GLA are all facts documented but maybe not known by many If you want to turn those facts around by besmerching me have at it . It does not change the facts .

I thought this board was to share knowledge and help others out not a place to bash people you do not even know . Maybe you should re read the whole thread . Maybe you missed something .

The sad part is that those posts I made back when were made at a tough time in my life. Many if not all were supportive of my situation. You apparently never sustained any dissapointment in your life or else you are perfect . Whatever the case I think some time for self reflection might not be a bad idea .

 

[Metro752]

You guys making a big deal about flying with only one set of charts obviously have never experienced any flying outside of the confines of part 121 shiney jet.

 

[Metro752]

Oh, and it makes you look like a bunch of dumb@sses. A further embarassment to the airlines. Not too many steps ahead of the Colgan mishap.

 

[Metro752]

Let me clarify, I am not saying anything bad about GLA pilots, I am doing the exact opposite. They are very respectable aviators.

 

[Thurman Merman]

Prior to 121 flying I flew corporate in a King Air 200. We had one on board library, 2 pilot operation. Very safe operation, we attended Flight Safety Atlanta twice a year(3 day course) for recurrent. If we were going into a tricky airport, ie Jackson Hole, we would photocopy the necessities. The company didn't cut corners, any maintenance we needed done the CFO would sign off on it. It didn't hurt he regularly flew with us. But anybody who knows King Airs, there ain't no room for two sets of manuals. This was a very safe operation, ran without incident, with one set of approach charts. Not to say that I don't enjoy having two sets 121.

 

[Raskal]

What's the big deal? I'm not defending GLA or any of its practices but jeez, stop acting like a bunch of pansies about the 2 sets of charts. As flyanryan pointed out most aircraft have one set (mostly because they carry all airports in North America, not just the select few we carry in 121 ops). Seriously, you really can't function without 2 sets of plates? Really?

 

[CopilotDoug]

All this macho BS is just that BS.

When one of my sim instructors (former Thud pilot in Vietnam) put it in these terms...it put it all into perspective.

 

[Cardinal]

No chest thumping just some cheap shots right ??

Thats a swell thing to drag up my previous 121 experiences . Save your back handed compliments for someone else . How dare you use the term Flushing in my case you do not know me or my circumstances at GLA. If you want to know more PM me we will talk then I give you permission to ask my sim instructor about my training event and why I left . Good thing for me I did or I would have been let go like everyone else was recently . call it a 6th sense .

Given your post history, the fact that you left ZK in the middle of training, and the sour grapes, left field original post, there was no other logical conclusion. Apparently you were man enough to quit of your own volition. Congratulations.

Furthermore This is the thanks I get for discussing a companies procedure while holding line pilots and trainers in a very high regard . I still say GLa pilots are top notch aviators unfortunately you need to learn about human interaction.

Give me a break. "Discuss a procedure"? Your intention was to start a crapstorm, and now you have one. Since you're fretting about approach plates months after your departure from Cheyenne, I have to wonder why. Clearly it's still on your mind.

Posting that crap on line was low and inexcusable . As a matter of fact it borders on defamation of character.
Classy guy you are .

Reading is fundamental. I thought you'd failed training. So when I wrote that Lakes "flushes alot of good guys" that was about as generous and warm a reply as could be managed. Here I thought I was blowing sunshine up your ass, instead it's taken as defamation. Wow.

I think you are sucking up to corporate GLA because your a Frontier Furloughee happy to be taken back by GLA . Am I right ???

Thank you Captain Sherlock. I called them "cheap...three toed sloths." If that's sucking up I'm not doing a very good job. But now you're on shaky ground, as you have no idea just how committed, just how many hours I've invested, in the name of unifiying this pilot group and squeezing every last drop of blood out of Voss.

Regarding your PM, I'm not going to have a back door slugfest with you, lets keep it on the record. a) No one quits becasue of swine flu. b) I quit a job and moved 1500 miles to DEN and got furloughed from Lakes, so I know exactly how low of a blow it is. c) The sim is cantankerous. Again we agree. d) I have taken a dump in the spare tire, but haven't yet had to urinate in my flight bag, thanks for caring.

All this macho BS is just that BS.

Still no aerial machismo out of any Lakers in this thread. The only ones raving about handflying have never flown the line here. I'd sell my mother into prostitution to have an autopilot again.

 

[Vavso]

You want to make this public have at it . I am glad I left you talk like a stooge who has no business being a union organizer . I left 3 days before sim ended and was encouraged to stay . Others who werent flying that POS sim well still carried over to the plane I chose to split . You got tossed from Frontier because of the economy begged for your job back and now are a freakin schill for GLA . Truth be told if we were in a bar having a beer you wouldnt think of insulting me and throwing my past issues in my face . I have a correction to my previous statement . GLA pilots are a great bunch of guys and good sticks. You are the exception to the rule . Good luck with the union your co workers deserve it just dont throw them under the bus . I met a lot of guys in my 3 months of busting my ass for zero pay . I never met one guy I didnt like . You must be "that guy " You know "that guy " every job has one or two of them .

Here you go "UNION ORGANIZER"
NTSB findings re Crash earlier discussed
Contributing to the causes of the accident was GP Express' failure to provide approach charts to each pilot It took me " a total failure " a lot to realize its not very safe practice . But you did a good job of deflecting that issue by bringing up my history . Quit the airlines become a detective you are great at researching my prior history . One I am not ashamed of thanks .. Sherlock

 

[Vavso]

Oh something else "Squeezed the blood out of them" why are you still still under payed and over worked .... so hero of GLA pilots I guess when you get recalled youll turn it down so you can be the savior of the pilot group at lakes . Its all about you isnt it . I bet you a grand youll be out the door in a second and not look back until the next time your furloughed . Oh lets not forget the 7500 training contract and being based in Farmington New Mexico . Might as well tell the whole story now that the laundry is hanging out .

 

[Cardinal]

I underestimated you, Vavso. On the scale of internet rants, that was a solid 9.0 out of 10. :beer: Extra points for vocabulary; "schill" and "stooge" don't get used enough. If flightinfo permitted profanity, I'm sure it would have been artfully employed. -1 point for actually citing facts, it interrupts the rythym of a good tirade.