Great lakes furloughs.... $ for approach charts

[Metro752]

You guys making a big deal about flying with only one set of charts obviously have never experienced any flying outside of the confines of part 121 shiney jet.

 

[Metro752]

Oh, and it makes you look like a bunch of dumb@sses. A further embarassment to the airlines. Not too many steps ahead of the Colgan mishap.

 

[Metro752]

Let me clarify, I am not saying anything bad about GLA pilots, I am doing the exact opposite. They are very respectable aviators.

 

[Thurman Merman]

Prior to 121 flying I flew corporate in a King Air 200. We had one on board library, 2 pilot operation. Very safe operation, we attended Flight Safety Atlanta twice a year(3 day course) for recurrent. If we were going into a tricky airport, ie Jackson Hole, we would photocopy the necessities. The company didn't cut corners, any maintenance we needed done the CFO would sign off on it. It didn't hurt he regularly flew with us. But anybody who knows King Airs, there ain't no room for two sets of manuals. This was a very safe operation, ran without incident, with one set of approach charts. Not to say that I don't enjoy having two sets 121.

 

[Raskal]

What's the big deal? I'm not defending GLA or any of its practices but jeez, stop acting like a bunch of pansies about the 2 sets of charts. As flyanryan pointed out most aircraft have one set (mostly because they carry all airports in North America, not just the select few we carry in 121 ops). Seriously, you really can't function without 2 sets of plates? Really?

 

[CopilotDoug]

All this macho BS is just that BS.

When one of my sim instructors (former Thud pilot in Vietnam) put it in these terms...it put it all into perspective.

 

[Cardinal]

No chest thumping just some cheap shots right ??

Thats a swell thing to drag up my previous 121 experiences . Save your back handed compliments for someone else . How dare you use the term Flushing in my case you do not know me or my circumstances at GLA. If you want to know more PM me we will talk then I give you permission to ask my sim instructor about my training event and why I left . Good thing for me I did or I would have been let go like everyone else was recently . call it a 6th sense .

Given your post history, the fact that you left ZK in the middle of training, and the sour grapes, left field original post, there was no other logical conclusion. Apparently you were man enough to quit of your own volition. Congratulations.

Furthermore This is the thanks I get for discussing a companies procedure while holding line pilots and trainers in a very high regard . I still say GLa pilots are top notch aviators unfortunately you need to learn about human interaction.

Give me a break. "Discuss a procedure"? Your intention was to start a crapstorm, and now you have one. Since you're fretting about approach plates months after your departure from Cheyenne, I have to wonder why. Clearly it's still on your mind.

Posting that crap on line was low and inexcusable . As a matter of fact it borders on defamation of character.
Classy guy you are .

Reading is fundamental. I thought you'd failed training. So when I wrote that Lakes "flushes alot of good guys" that was about as generous and warm a reply as could be managed. Here I thought I was blowing sunshine up your ass, instead it's taken as defamation. Wow.

I think you are sucking up to corporate GLA because your a Frontier Furloughee happy to be taken back by GLA . Am I right ???

Thank you Captain Sherlock. I called them "cheap...three toed sloths." If that's sucking up I'm not doing a very good job. But now you're on shaky ground, as you have no idea just how committed, just how many hours I've invested, in the name of unifiying this pilot group and squeezing every last drop of blood out of Voss.

Regarding your PM, I'm not going to have a back door slugfest with you, lets keep it on the record. a) No one quits becasue of swine flu. b) I quit a job and moved 1500 miles to DEN and got furloughed from Lakes, so I know exactly how low of a blow it is. c) The sim is cantankerous. Again we agree. d) I have taken a dump in the spare tire, but haven't yet had to urinate in my flight bag, thanks for caring.

All this macho BS is just that BS.

Still no aerial machismo out of any Lakers in this thread. The only ones raving about handflying have never flown the line here. I'd sell my mother into prostitution to have an autopilot again.

 

[Vavso]

You want to make this public have at it . I am glad I left you talk like a stooge who has no business being a union organizer . I left 3 days before sim ended and was encouraged to stay . Others who werent flying that POS sim well still carried over to the plane I chose to split . You got tossed from Frontier because of the economy begged for your job back and now are a freakin schill for GLA . Truth be told if we were in a bar having a beer you wouldnt think of insulting me and throwing my past issues in my face . I have a correction to my previous statement . GLA pilots are a great bunch of guys and good sticks. You are the exception to the rule . Good luck with the union your co workers deserve it just dont throw them under the bus . I met a lot of guys in my 3 months of busting my ass for zero pay . I never met one guy I didnt like . You must be "that guy " You know "that guy " every job has one or two of them .

Here you go "UNION ORGANIZER"
NTSB findings re Crash earlier discussed
Contributing to the causes of the accident was GP Express' failure to provide approach charts to each pilot It took me " a total failure " a lot to realize its not very safe practice . But you did a good job of deflecting that issue by bringing up my history . Quit the airlines become a detective you are great at researching my prior history . One I am not ashamed of thanks .. Sherlock

 

[Vavso]

Oh something else "Squeezed the blood out of them" why are you still still under payed and over worked .... so hero of GLA pilots I guess when you get recalled youll turn it down so you can be the savior of the pilot group at lakes . Its all about you isnt it . I bet you a grand youll be out the door in a second and not look back until the next time your furloughed . Oh lets not forget the 7500 training contract and being based in Farmington New Mexico . Might as well tell the whole story now that the laundry is hanging out .

 

[Cardinal]

I underestimated you, Vavso. On the scale of internet rants, that was a solid 9.0 out of 10. :beer: Extra points for vocabulary; "schill" and "stooge" don't get used enough. If flightinfo permitted profanity, I'm sure it would have been artfully employed. -1 point for actually citing facts, it interrupts the rythym of a good tirade.

 

[Vavso]

Light hearted turned sour

all that aside forget knocking me on a personal level. Why do you take the no chart issue so personally . Your position from the beginning aside from the slothe ( wow such a bold criticism ) issue has been very defensive of your employer . I understand they gave you a job .I am very pleased you are employed . I would suggest we end this discussion because its not getting us any place. YOU have everything on the line . Like "big brother " I do not so do yourself a favor and belittle someone else. Dont crap where you eat or the sloth might be done with you .

I hope all your dreams come true and you fix your labor issues the guys ( and girls ) deserve better . In the meantime I will have another sip of my umbrella drink. Its obvious you are a company man .... Hey is that chief pilot job still open ??



"Oh the anonymity of the internet you get to reach out and touch someone without them touching you back "

 

[moonship]

Well back on subject. I too am a Lakes CA and I do not mind a bit that we only have one set of plates. Beyond the fact that it is not realistic to think that we have the room for more binders up front, the fact that we are backed up by no automation means that the pilot flying IMO should not be taking away from their scan on an approach to reference a plate. No matter how short a time they look away the airplane can get away from you on an approach very quickly and I personally don't want the PF doing anything but just being the PF! I understand how some could think that this is a major issue however I comfortably can say that a through approach briefing by the PF followed by solid CRM with good communication and situational awareness mitigates any issues with only having one plate. Per my logbook I did 22 approaches last month, 16 of them non-p wihtout vectors and not once did, nor have I every, said that they would have been safer with a second plate.

If the intent of this threat was to have a discussion about the practicality or safety of only have one set of plates that message was lost but the implication that furloughing here has anything to do with FO's not having plates. This has been the practice here since the days of old so to put the two together in the same sentence is starting to become Micheal Moore logic.

 

[Freebrd]

If the intent of this threat was to have a discussion about the practicality or safety of only have one set of plates that message was lost but the implication that furloughing here has anything to do with FO's not having plates. This has been the practice here since the days of old so to put the two together in the same sentence is starting to become Micheal Moore logic.

As it was in the earlier mentioned GP Express crash. They didn't make the turn as called for in the missed appr & hit that mountain by flying straight. It can be done w/out both seats having charts, but much safer if both have them. That's why the NTSB mentioned it.

 

[JohnnyP]

.....

I am currently immersed in the "only one set of plates" arrangement now in my 2 crew plane.

I would much rather go with my previous 121 norm, to having both guys have a plate attached to the yoke to look at, but what are ya gonna do I guess?...when in rome......

Once you leave most of the 121 op's, it becomes what I like to call "crazy town"....I wish the only complaint I had was our lack of a current set of second plates.

On the safety side, I do think it is less safe having only one set of plates while the other guy goes off memory, DA scribbled on his yoke paper, etc...

Just wait until you run across hand-made "Jungle Jepps" to obscure remote strips......Then its gnarly time, game on!!.....

 

[Trogdor]

The only thing preventing me from career progression is the economy . Plain and simple .

Perhaps the only thing preventing you from career progression is the fact that you only have 1400 hours. Do you think with your vast experience you should be in the left seat of a 777? I've got some bad news for you sunshine, when the hiring resumes, chumps like you will be sitting right seat in an RJ for a LONG LONG time, enjoy it.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Perhaps the only thing preventing you from career progression is the fact that you only have 1400 hours. Do you think with your vast experience you should be in the left seat of a 777? I've got some bad news for you sunshine, when the hiring resumes, chumps like you will be sitting right seat in an RJ for a LONG LONG time, enjoy it.

Chumps like "him"??? You're waiting to go back to your RJ, dude! You already know the pot and kettle thing...

 

[moonship]

RJ? E-190 is US Airways MAINLINE and that's the seat he is going to go back to... Yeah you sure showed him.

 

[CopilotDoug]

RJ? E-190 is US Airways MAINLINE and that's the seat he is going to go back to... Yeah you sure showed him.

So AAA flies RJ's. I hear their pay could use improvements too.

 

[Crash Pad]

So I went from Lakes to another airline that has one of these alternate bricks. So there I am diverting to ORD in IMC. I crack open the brick to discover... wait for it... Only one set of charts. It gets worse. The charts are only the approach plates. No arrivals, departures, taxi diagrams, etc...

Guess what we somehow managed to get the plane on the ground. I didn't write to congress about the reduced safety of an alternate brick. We don't even train single plate approaches in training.

While everyone is screaming on this site how many dual plate airlines have done a runway incursion. I will shock the world and tell you that a lot of times both pilots don't have the taxi diagram out!

Note: I have restrained from any of the macho stuff. I still think that lakes washes a load of pilots in training. Many of those pilots go on to great careers in jets, etc... As a former laker I can say it's not for everyone. That said it was the most fun and best time many of us have had in aviation. RICKSHAW!

 

[Vavso]

Thanks guys

"Chumps like me" Another one that knows me and my circumstances . To those who post to this thread civily thanks . To others who decided to begin character assasination and name calling ...if thats what you have to do to feel better about yourself I am sorry.
Unfortunately in this industry filled with young aspiring airline pilots and the cut throat business the lines get blurry . Not everyone aspires to be an airline captain or fly f-16's .

Now that this thread is suffering from agonal respiration lets just let it die already . Thanks " two time loser + chump" signing off

 

[Cornelius]

Vavso,

Just because you would have been furloughed like the other trainees doesn't justify quiting. It is a good idea not to burn any bridges in this industry especially in this economy with very few flying jobs. I know a few lakers who will be blackballed at every major airline out there and will retire GLA at 65 yrs old.

When I got furloughed from lakes in 2001, I was excited because the other regionals were amping up hiring. 9/11 then happened and my plans were cancelled with a much better regional. Luckily I had the Lakes connection and went back there before any of the other regionals out there were recalling. Lakes is good s*&t as long as you don't have a family.

 

[Vavso]

hi

In all honesty i really wanted it to work out $ was not an issue I wanted to move away from where I was . Due to a bunch of issues including those previously stated I felt it was the right choice I may have suprised myself by sticking it out and may have succeded . It was a very challenging experience although I actually enjoyed the structured training environment was with a bunch of great guys liked the instructors and line pilots I met nd learned a lot.
After weighing all sides of the equation I made a decision that I thought was right who knows in time maybe the decision would have been made for me . In the end things were not going well. That much I admit.