GREAT CE-750 Job!!!!

[bvt1151]

Neither charter companies nor part 91 flight departments are non-profit organizations. The company is out to maximize profits, and that means minimizing costs. The argument that pilots should be paid to even those out does not apply. They will pay the minimum amount for the type of pilot they want. That's how business works. If you turn down a job because the company is making too much money, the next guy won't, and you'll have taken a "stand" for absolutely nothing.

The "rules" of capitalism are much like the rules of physics. They can be bent, but never changed. Eventually, if pilot supply exceeds pilot demand, capitalism will find a way to lower wages. Instead of trying to force wages up artificially, the much better long term solution is to give a reason for your wages to increase. Instead of providing internet job boards, which give the employer the advantage of finding the lowest cost pilot, start a survey of pilot qualifications that lets the owners of these outfits know exactly how qualified or unqualified their pilots are compared to the industry. Put the focus back on the pilots' ability, rather than just the cost. That's how you increase wages. Make them WANT to pay you more.

 

[sleepy]

Neither charter companies nor part 91 flight departments are non-profit organizations. The company is out to maximize profits, and that means minimizing costs. The argument that pilots should be paid to even those out does not apply. They will pay the minimum amount for the type of pilot they want. That's how business works. If you turn down a job because the company is making too much money, the next guy won't, and you'll have taken a "stand" for absolutely nothing.

The "rules" of capitalism are much like the rules of physics. They can be bent, but never changed. Eventually, if pilot supply exceeds pilot demand, capitalism will find a way to lower wages. Instead of trying to force wages up artificially, the much better long term solution is to give a reason for your wages to increase. Instead of providing internet job boards, which give the employer the advantage of finding the lowest cost pilot, start a survey of pilot qualifications that lets the owners of these outfits know exactly how qualified or unqualified their pilots are compared to the industry. Put the focus back on the pilots' ability, rather than just the cost. That's how you increase wages. Make them WANT to pay you more.

Very good post.

 

[BlueCanoe]

I'm a CRJ-70 FO, and I was making fun of airline pay compared to what you won't touch a much smaller aircraft for.

If you can't laugh at yourself...

Trust me, I'm about to lose my job because a whole slew of guys with SJS will do it for less. Read a bit about it on the Regional's forum. You're preaching to the choir.

Another GJ pilot outed...

 

[bvt1151]

Another GJ pilot outed...

Do a bit of research, and you'll understand how rediculous you sound.

 

[surplus1]

I don’t have a dog in the fight but your discussion is interesting and I do have a couple of questions and comments based on what you said.

Pilots should not compete with each other based on pay. They should compete based on merit. The last thing that I want is to fly with some dork because he CONvinced my boss that he was the boy for the job because he would work for less than industry standard wage.

That’s interesting. Since you don’t want to compete based on pay = cost, but want to compete based on “merit”, my question is this: How and who determines what “merit” is? Isn’t “merit” an arbitrary determination made by your boss? If he “likes” you, you have “merit”. If he doesn’t “like” you, you have less merit.

You say you don’t want to fly with the lowest bidder (understandable – to me) but you also say you would rather fly with the biggest a$$ kisser (not understandable – to me).

“Merit” is totally subjective and has nothing to do with “qualifications” or worth. It may or may not have something to do with performance. Bottom line, it depends on the whims of your boss.

So does the pay for the job so, what’s the real difference?

.

They will pay the minimum amount for the type of pilot they want. That's how business works.

Probably true.

The "rules" of capitalism are much like the rules of physics. They can be bent, but never changed. Eventually, if pilot supply exceeds pilot demand, capitalism will find a way to lower wages.

That’s probably true too, although I would say it a bit differently. Capitalism has only one “rule” and that’s the golden rule, i.e., “the man with the gold makes the rules.” That’s not very different from the “merit system” where the man with the power makes the merit.

Instead of providing internet job boards, which give the employer the advantage of finding the lowest cost pilot, start a survey of pilot qualifications that lets the owners of these outfits know exactly how qualified or unqualified their pilots are compared to the industry. Put the focus back on the pilots' ability, rather than just the cost.

Hmmm, and just how does one determine a pilot’s “qualifications”. If two pilots each have the same education and the same licenses and ratings, how do you decide which one is more “qualified” that the other? Isn’t that subjective as well?

Are “qualifications” based on flight hours? If so, isn’t that arbitrary as well? If you have two pilots, each with 10,000 hours, are they equally qualified? Is a pilot with 10,000 hours all in a Piper something more “qualified” than a pilot with 3,000 hours in say a King Air or 500 hours in an F-15? Can a pilot have 3,000 hours of “experience” and another pilot have 1 hour of “experience” – repeated 3,000 times?

It seems to me you are both saying essentially the same thing but using different words. It’s all subjective.

In contrast, in your airline system based on seniority, everyone is assumed to be “qualified” as long as he/she meets the legal requirements. Likewise, everyone is assumed to have the same “merit” as long as you do your job and stay out of trouble. The system is fairly objective because the same criteria is applied to everyone. Additionally, if you’re unionized, you have a collective voice in determining the value of your service and your working conditions. You are more, though not much more, than an “at will” employee.

That brings us back to square one, compensation. No matter how it’s arrived at, compensation is also subjective and has nothing to do with “merit” or “qualifications”. Unless your in the airline environment, you can take it or leave but you have no voice in the matter.

Company A has a vacancy and offers to pay $50 K. Company B has the same vacancy but offers to pay $30 K. The applicant must decide, regardless of his “merit” or his “qualifications”, which of the two jobs he prefers and will take and which he will not. It doesn’t seem to me to make much difference as long as the pilot is personally satisfied with the job and the terms. He might accept either offer or turn down both.

The employer is free to offer whatever he wants and the pilot is free to take it or leave it. What the employer “gets” for his money may or may not be determined by the amount of money in the corporate world. What the employer “gets” in the airline world is someone who is legally “qualified” to fill the vacant seat. What the pilot “gets” in either case may be a great job for only 30K or a lousy job for 50K, or a mediocre job for either sum.

Moral 1: The man with the gold makes the rules.

Moral 2: All that glitters is not gold.

Both of you could be right, and then again both of you could be wrong. It’s all a crap shoot and it’s always been that way.

In the corporate world you’re basically a chauffer whose “car” (limo) has wings; a sort of glorified servant. In the airline world you work a lot harder but there is little if any “servitude” involved. You’re closer to being a bus driver than a limo chauffer.

“Different strokes for different folks.”

 

[Brett Hull]

In the corporate world you’re basically a chauffer whose “car” (limo) has wings; a sort of glorified servant.

That's kinda like saying every RJ pilot has no basic understanding of high-altitude aerodynamics, switches seats on the way up while chanting "4-1-0 it dude". It may fit for a few, but you shouldn't paint with such a broad brush.

 

[Tgaug6300]

Aren't all of us pilots some type of "glorified servants"?

Corp. pilots = (according to Surplus1: Chauffers)
Airline pilots = Bus drivers
Cargo haulers = mailmen
EMS pilots = Amublance drivers
Flight Instructors = Teachers

But as pilots, we all have certain skills and knowledge that not everyone has or can do. Therefore we should be paid as such. I have to agree that if a company can afford a 16mil aircraft, then they should be able to pay at least industry standard. Just my .02

 

[Tgaug6300]

I guess we are all flying for "THE MAN"! (LOL)

 

[dime line]

The average Nanny makes 60-80,000, Personal cooks 120,000, 120ft + Yacht Captains 150,000 +

We are not paid what were worth, were paid what we negotiate.

 

[750driver]

We are not paid what were worth, were paid what we negotiate.

That's a fact. Well said.