KingAirKiddo
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Diesel,
Where's the love?! More importantly, where did I ever say pay cuts are great? I did say they might be necessary given the current economic situation. I did say that growth (i.e., bigger airplanes for the captains, upgrades for the F.O.'s, and a return of jobs for our furloughees) is more important than a small pay cut. Actually, my first inclination was to be stubborn and vote "No" for the reasons listed previously - I have a reserve job and can easily get a job flying helos or preferably go to grad school for a career that I truly enjoy. However, the impetus to vote "Yes" came from some of my fellow F.O.'s - most of which do not belong to a reserve unit - as well as looking at the current state of the airline industry. As for bringing down the whole industry - lets place the blame where it really belongs - on the customer who is unwilling to pay big bucks anymore to travel. The fact that this is a service industry in a capitalistic country hasn't registered with you yet. My company is in competition with your company which is in competition with the next company....
Somebody earlier in this thread said "prepare yourself for the worst case scenario". I did - I joined a reserve unit. It takes away a lot of free time and I'll probably go over to the big sandbox for a few months next year. Feel free to sign up and serve your country instead of taking a free ride on the protection that I provide. Some of our civilian pilots are contemplating service now - and I am doing everything that I can to make sure they don't get hosed by a recruiter, that they get the unit that will be most beneficial to them.
PBR,
You are right - it is an unbalanced situation - or it might be evolution. I personally believe that when the majors began to contract out flying the genie was let out of the bottle and its not going back in. The arrival of the RJ was the advance in technology that triggered this revolution and changed the balance of power from labor to management. Now you have an oversupply of carriers and pilots. You have an economy that is down and businesses that are severely curtailing travel expenses. You have majors under attack from LCC's such as SouthWest, JetBlue, AirTran, etc - and nobody is blaming them (nor should they) for "lowering the bar" and "dragging down the industry". You have customers using the internet to get bargain basement prices. You have cities paying LCC's to fly into their airports robbing the majors of significant revenue. You have an increase in both fuel prices as well as taxes for additional security. Business is business. You can adapt or go bankrupt. And no, I don't have an answer other than let the market run its course.
Where's the love?! More importantly, where did I ever say pay cuts are great? I did say they might be necessary given the current economic situation. I did say that growth (i.e., bigger airplanes for the captains, upgrades for the F.O.'s, and a return of jobs for our furloughees) is more important than a small pay cut. Actually, my first inclination was to be stubborn and vote "No" for the reasons listed previously - I have a reserve job and can easily get a job flying helos or preferably go to grad school for a career that I truly enjoy. However, the impetus to vote "Yes" came from some of my fellow F.O.'s - most of which do not belong to a reserve unit - as well as looking at the current state of the airline industry. As for bringing down the whole industry - lets place the blame where it really belongs - on the customer who is unwilling to pay big bucks anymore to travel. The fact that this is a service industry in a capitalistic country hasn't registered with you yet. My company is in competition with your company which is in competition with the next company....
Somebody earlier in this thread said "prepare yourself for the worst case scenario". I did - I joined a reserve unit. It takes away a lot of free time and I'll probably go over to the big sandbox for a few months next year. Feel free to sign up and serve your country instead of taking a free ride on the protection that I provide. Some of our civilian pilots are contemplating service now - and I am doing everything that I can to make sure they don't get hosed by a recruiter, that they get the unit that will be most beneficial to them.
PBR,
You are right - it is an unbalanced situation - or it might be evolution. I personally believe that when the majors began to contract out flying the genie was let out of the bottle and its not going back in. The arrival of the RJ was the advance in technology that triggered this revolution and changed the balance of power from labor to management. Now you have an oversupply of carriers and pilots. You have an economy that is down and businesses that are severely curtailing travel expenses. You have majors under attack from LCC's such as SouthWest, JetBlue, AirTran, etc - and nobody is blaming them (nor should they) for "lowering the bar" and "dragging down the industry". You have customers using the internet to get bargain basement prices. You have cities paying LCC's to fly into their airports robbing the majors of significant revenue. You have an increase in both fuel prices as well as taxes for additional security. Business is business. You can adapt or go bankrupt. And no, I don't have an answer other than let the market run its course.
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Skull-One
Very Large Member
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46Driver said:
You really are an arrogant SOB aren't you?
Sorry, bud. I donated two parents to the cause of serving this great country, did my own bit to help (and have the torn up knee to show for it), and am now too old to go back even if I *could* pass a medical. Don't lecture me about free rides.
In the meantime, selling out your junior F/Os is a sh*tty thing to do. You should be ashamed. You have a duty to make the world a better place for those who follow. I feel sorry for the poor F/Os who will sit in the right seat for 5 years at a substandard lifestyle all because you voted to screw them for your own selfish needs.......
Arrogant no, logical yes. The fact that I want the F.O.'s at my company to return from furlough as soon as possible (and I tried to take a voluntary leave of absence to save a spot for someone who needs this job) doesn't seem to register with you, nor does the fact that the other F.O.'s called me with the reasons they were switching their votes from "No" to "Yes". If you want to be emotional and rant, that's fine. I would prefer that you stick to the issues. What it boils down to is: "how serious is the situation for our company and what is the best course of action." Some people think the company is bluffing, others think the whole industry is in transition and we must adapt to survive. I am in the latter group.
And the two things that I find astonishing are being pilloried for my military service and for taking some individual initiative to be prepared for lean times. I do thank you for your parent's service, and I thank you for service - I wish you no ill will.
And the two things that I find astonishing are being pilloried for my military service and for taking some individual initiative to be prepared for lean times. I do thank you for your parent's service, and I thank you for service - I wish you no ill will.
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Diesel
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46driver why should it be for 5 years. The company knows our weakness and is exploiting it for 5 years. That is the reason for my no vote 5 years is too long. Nothing is garanteed if this ta passes. If all aca does is fly from iad to bwi for united that is considered enough for the company to say that they have recieved a contract from united to be a codeshare.
If you listened to marty levitt the nuymber one thing managment wants is control. Thats what they get with this, control. Even if you do vote this TA in it doesn't mean that we will grow at all.
Managment isn't there to help you. they are using this as a reason to get more from the pilots with less money.
If you listened to marty levitt the nuymber one thing managment wants is control. Thats what they get with this, control. Even if you do vote this TA in it doesn't mean that we will grow at all.
Managment isn't there to help you. they are using this as a reason to get more from the pilots with less money.
Diesel,
Thank you for the civil tone. And if I came off as an arrogant SOB, I apologize. I do my best to think logically and state the facts as I see them - I could probably use some sensitivity training....
The 5 year thing? You are dead on. It was - and is - my #1 question and concern, especially if in 5 years contract talks drag out for another 2 or 3 years. I honestly can't give you a satisfactory answer other than what was said - United wanted a 10 year deal and this is the best we could do. I also think - like you said, there is no guarantee - that we have a better chance for growth with the TA than without. I don't know, I may go back and change my vote. In the interim, I am going to continue to read our ALPA board, call a few more friends, and contemplate the situation. I am open to more information, ideas, and suggestions.
Thank you for the civil tone. And if I came off as an arrogant SOB, I apologize. I do my best to think logically and state the facts as I see them - I could probably use some sensitivity training....
The 5 year thing? You are dead on. It was - and is - my #1 question and concern, especially if in 5 years contract talks drag out for another 2 or 3 years. I honestly can't give you a satisfactory answer other than what was said - United wanted a 10 year deal and this is the best we could do. I also think - like you said, there is no guarantee - that we have a better chance for growth with the TA than without. I don't know, I may go back and change my vote. In the interim, I am going to continue to read our ALPA board, call a few more friends, and contemplate the situation. I am open to more information, ideas, and suggestions.
PBRstreetgang
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46,
Do not believe anything that you cannot verify, that's the first step away from the "Doom and Gloom" campaign that managment is using at every airline today. For some it may be accurate, UAL for example, SKYW used this very same debate to drive the pilots fears. They did, and it worked. Net result, SKYW vote closed, UAL announces 6 hours later 10+ year deal and profits very near pre-9/11 levels, so much doom and gloom, and it only cost the company 1% net profit. The pilots gave up nothing and thats what they will get for 18mos, but the company gets the opportunity to increase profits leaps and bounds, 50-99 seats at 2 year old 50 seat prices. Smoke and mirrors, look past and you will see.
PBR
PS My father was shot 3 times in WWII and I defended your right to be free in this country as a police officer for a more than a decade. When you wave the flag you are waving it at a nation of people who have already paid in blood for your right to wave it!
Do not believe anything that you cannot verify, that's the first step away from the "Doom and Gloom" campaign that managment is using at every airline today. For some it may be accurate, UAL for example, SKYW used this very same debate to drive the pilots fears. They did, and it worked. Net result, SKYW vote closed, UAL announces 6 hours later 10+ year deal and profits very near pre-9/11 levels, so much doom and gloom, and it only cost the company 1% net profit. The pilots gave up nothing and thats what they will get for 18mos, but the company gets the opportunity to increase profits leaps and bounds, 50-99 seats at 2 year old 50 seat prices. Smoke and mirrors, look past and you will see.
PBR
PS My father was shot 3 times in WWII and I defended your right to be free in this country as a police officer for a more than a decade. When you wave the flag you are waving it at a nation of people who have already paid in blood for your right to wave it!
Duty or Welfare
Joining the reserves to subsidize a pay cut! Why didn't mgt think of that. That sounds more like welfare than duty. With friends like 46, we don't need ANY enemies.
As a Gulf I vet with 7 years of service, I find the flag waving bit out of line. There are way too many servicemen in aviation to pull out that card! And a good portion of those signed up due to pride and honor to do so, not to balance out sub-standard salaries.
It is like seeing the bums at intersections with fatigues on. Not respectable. Of course we could join them in our cute pilot outfits.
46, In all respect, I appreciate your service, but be careful which soap box you climb up on. I left the Army to make more money and be a good family man, not to slowly go broke and run back there to bail me out.
For the record, Saudi doesn't not rank on my list of QOL perks! We should all try harder to avoid that place.
Joining the reserves to subsidize a pay cut! Why didn't mgt think of that. That sounds more like welfare than duty. With friends like 46, we don't need ANY enemies.
As a Gulf I vet with 7 years of service, I find the flag waving bit out of line. There are way too many servicemen in aviation to pull out that card! And a good portion of those signed up due to pride and honor to do so, not to balance out sub-standard salaries.
It is like seeing the bums at intersections with fatigues on. Not respectable. Of course we could join them in our cute pilot outfits.
46, In all respect, I appreciate your service, but be careful which soap box you climb up on. I left the Army to make more money and be a good family man, not to slowly go broke and run back there to bail me out.
For the record, Saudi doesn't not rank on my list of QOL perks! We should all try harder to avoid that place.
FOB,
I joined the reserves (which I did immediately after active duty and before joining the airlines) for 3 reasons. 1) I enjoy serving in the military and did not want to cut all of my ties. 2) With 11 years of active duty, a reserve retirement will be substantial and the healthcare a sweet bonus. 3) As an insurance policy to pay the mortgage, having a reserve billet for at least 8 years (maybe more) is hard to beat if the economy tanks (which it did) or if I want to change careers and go to graduate school (which I contemplate everyday.) It is these three reasons that I emphasize to some of the civilian pilots at the company who are contemplating signing up.
PS: If you are interested only in money, the Marines are the last branch you join.
I joined the reserves (which I did immediately after active duty and before joining the airlines) for 3 reasons. 1) I enjoy serving in the military and did not want to cut all of my ties. 2) With 11 years of active duty, a reserve retirement will be substantial and the healthcare a sweet bonus. 3) As an insurance policy to pay the mortgage, having a reserve billet for at least 8 years (maybe more) is hard to beat if the economy tanks (which it did) or if I want to change careers and go to graduate school (which I contemplate everyday.) It is these three reasons that I emphasize to some of the civilian pilots at the company who are contemplating signing up.
PS: If you are interested only in money, the Marines are the last branch you join.
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46,
Now that is a soap box I like! I respect that position.
Do me one favor though. Ensure the new recruits actually want to be "soldiers." A lot of the newbies coming in as I was leaving had a hard time with getting dirty. Too many Private Benjamins looking to milk out some benefits. I am sure the MC was very different than the Army, but still. The money or college funds shouldn't be the deciding factor to serve your country.
Hoohah!, shthot!, drive on! and all that sort of thing.
Now that is a soap box I like! I respect that position.
Do me one favor though. Ensure the new recruits actually want to be "soldiers." A lot of the newbies coming in as I was leaving had a hard time with getting dirty. Too many Private Benjamins looking to milk out some benefits. I am sure the MC was very different than the Army, but still. The money or college funds shouldn't be the deciding factor to serve your country.
Hoohah!, shthot!, drive on! and all that sort of thing.
ReportCanoa
I'm fly in any weather
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- 899
ReportCanoa,
What now.... You don't like Calvin and Hobbes?
FOB,
The guys I spoke to that are interested in joining the reserves are good people - you would certainly want them in your unit. 2 want to go fly fixed wing while one wants to go fly something different - i.e., helos.
What now.... You don't like Calvin and Hobbes?
FOB,
The guys I spoke to that are interested in joining the reserves are good people - you would certainly want them in your unit. 2 want to go fly fixed wing while one wants to go fly something different - i.e., helos.
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ReportCanoa
I'm fly in any weather
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(and I tried to take a voluntary leave of absence to save a spot for someone who needs this job)
No, I just have a problem with people like yourself voting on something that affects others who actually need a paycheck.
Do everyone a favor and abstain voting if you don't care what happens to your airline. Just for your jazzy PIC time that won't be worth a nickel? (no pun intended)....
A majority of pilots are working to support their family. Trust me, no one gives a darn about your military service, masters degree and all that BS. I'm here to fly airplanes and get paid for it. You show your lack of integrity, experience and judgement if you put priority on anything else. So do your co-workers a favor- don't vote.
No, I just have a problem with people like yourself voting on something that affects others who actually need a paycheck.
Do everyone a favor and abstain voting if you don't care what happens to your airline. Just for your jazzy PIC time that won't be worth a nickel? (no pun intended)....
A majority of pilots are working to support their family. Trust me, no one gives a darn about your military service, masters degree and all that BS. I'm here to fly airplanes and get paid for it. You show your lack of integrity, experience and judgement if you put priority on anything else. So do your co-workers a favor- don't vote.
Just when you think you've seen it all, along comes this. Try and be a Good Samaritan and take a voluntary leave of absence (to those on the outside, it eventually was not offered for my domicile and seat) to help out and still you can't please some people. And if you want to get technical, if 50.1% of us don't vote the TA gets decided upon by the MEC - which would be yes.
Also, I got a couple of calls today - one from a F.O. of the same seniority and another from a respected captain. Both said the same thing: relunctantly "Yes." (and neither is in the military.) We all care what happens to our airline - we just have a different interpretation of the situation and our response to it.
Finally, the fact that I didn't put all of my eggs into the aviation basket is irrelevant - I want my company to succeed and the pilots to have jobs. However, everybody needs a contigency plan(s) in the event their airline folds or they lose their medical (I've had both happen to friends already.)
Also, I got a couple of calls today - one from a F.O. of the same seniority and another from a respected captain. Both said the same thing: relunctantly "Yes." (and neither is in the military.) We all care what happens to our airline - we just have a different interpretation of the situation and our response to it.
Finally, the fact that I didn't put all of my eggs into the aviation basket is irrelevant - I want my company to succeed and the pilots to have jobs. However, everybody needs a contigency plan(s) in the event their airline folds or they lose their medical (I've had both happen to friends already.)
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