Goodnight Irene

[46Driver]

While this whole industry is in turmoil, start looking around to see how you can beat the system. As Tony Curtis said in Operation Petticoat, "There is opportunity in chaos."
Besides, even a paycut as a Captain is still substantially higher than the original F.O. pay.

 

[Skull-One]

Spoken like a true Jarhead. Semper Fi...or somethin'.....

 

[PBRstreetgang]

46,
"As a senior F.O., it is a different perspective - the only things that matter are growth and a chance to upgrade. The consensus among most of my peers is that its a calculated risk for PIC time."

As a senior 5+ years F/O the only thing that matters is QOL for all the pilots on the senority list, your willingness to step all over your fellow senority listers is appalling, get mine, before anyonelse at any cost , your unbridled greed will cost you thousands. You will get the "growth" you need so badly, then the "majors" will not hire anyone because you were so busy "getting your PIC time" at any cost, then you can get plenty of PIC time for a lot less $.$$ because you dropped the bar so low, the majors decide to grow you more because of your low costs.
This short sighted, get mine now, mentality will get us all in the endgame.
sorry about the run-on I got spooled up reading this tripe and am gonna go outside and stare at the sun.
PBR
oh yeh-semper fi , oopps I guess it only applies to Marines.

 

[46Driver]

Growth is a win-win for our company. The furloughees come back to work, the F.O.'s upgrade to captain (and thus either get a pay raise or have a chance to move to a bigger airline), and the senior captains get bigger airplanes and thus more money. What is bad about any of that? What is bad about wanting my company to do well?

Even with the TA, our contract is still relatively good and our "bar" is still higher than many other carriers. And it is my opinion that with the current state of the industry that we will have to take concessions - just like UAL, US Air, etc.... especially since we are an independant carrier bidding to work for United.

And finally, quite a few of the other hard-charging pilots (captains and F.O.'s) have been asking me about the reserves - for such reasons as extra income, furlough protection and the QOL.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Ok still seeing spots from staring at the sun.
There is nothing wrong with wanting your company to do well.

The problem lies with an unbalanced situation, which is where it is now.
the majors have relied upon the regionals to provide low cost feed for the mainline operations. Usually around 10% of the total seats. As they see the glow around the edges from using low cost flying(you),
the majors will do anything they can to get cheap flying, to the regionals. As time goes on your senority lengthens and your cost to the company goes up increasing the cost to the mainline carrier. You say so what? When your costs get too high,
poof, your carrier does not get its contract renewed. I wonder how long your company will keep you on the payroll after loosing the flying to mesa or some other low cost carrier to be formed in the future. You think it can not happen? Ask any number of Westair pilots who were furloughed after UAL cancelled the Westair contract and awarded it to SKYW.
The only thing that stands between this occurring over and over again would be a unified pilot group(all), with contracts, unity and the ability to agree. Seeing how you are willing to take any number of UAL, DAL,AAL,CAL or any number of other pilots jobs away because you need the "PIC" this will probably happen and you and lots of other pilots will be working at Lowes and the reserve. If you cannot see the folly of your position, do nothing get that "PIC", and pretend it will not happen to me.
Good luck
PBR

 

[skootertrash]

So ACA how does it feel to be in the same group as Mesa and Skywest. At least Air Whisky had a great contract before they had to slash it to compete with the MESA WHORES. You are going from OK to MESA in one vote.

 

[sideshow]

Then what facts can you present to me if there is a NO vote. If you ask me, there arent any facts with either vote. So if youre basing your vote on facts then i guess either vote is wrong. ALPA has speculated on either vote as well as mgmt. But they have stressed that a better situation will arise with a YES vote. And if your talking about FEAR, it would seem that a NO vote is in FEAR of a paycut. Either way a vote is based on speculation and hope. There are no guarantees with this TA, whichever way it goes.

Let's be clear that a better situation MIGHT arise with a YES vote and that better situation is more profit for ACA. Great, I'm a shareholder and since we can get a 10% wage reduction JUST FOR ASKING FOR IT. You're right. What was I thinking.

Do you not find it at all interesting that we, the pilots, cannot even see the results of the pole that WE paid for?
Do you not find it interesting that the Union told us WE must take paycuts because it's a line item blah....blah....blah?
But, if that's the case then SKYWEST wouldn't have gotten the UEX contract. Bain would have flat out gave their flying to MESA or whomever the lowest bidder is.
Remember in the beginning of all the TA talk it was that COST WAS the ONLY DETERMINING FACTOR.

My how things have changed. Our problem is not that pilots are overpaid. Our CEO got 14 million dollars last year and our airline is one of the poorest run on the planet. That's why we can't compete. Why would you pay high prices AND get crappy service. In the case of SKYWEST they may be paying more but they are getting a good product.

I'm in no FEAR at all of a paycut but why take one if it is not absolutely necessary. You and everyone else that wants to vote YES because you think the MEC is looking out for you is exactly why they can count on you taking another pay cut or changing the work rules or anything else later on.

So, can I assume that youre ashamed at the United pilot group for taking concessions. They have no guarantees. The only facts they have are that they may emerge from bankruptcy by cutting costs. I have respect for them for taking a cut of their own pay to try and save their jobs. Its sad that youre ashamed to be amongst us. Personally im sick of reading all the complaining and whining and constant bashing on each other in here. If youre ashamed then perhaps youre with the wrong group of people. I cant vote yet, but I trust the rest of the pilot group to make a good decision for me. The MEC already has, and I hope that we can all prosper from the right decision.

For anyone to construe that our situation is in any way similar to United's, you have to be uninformed to the point of idiocy. I'm glad you are comfortable delegating your decision making to others. You will go far.

 

[sideshow]

skootertrash, you must be sniffing glue again if can compare Mesa and Skywest. Nice post otherwise.

 

[Diesel]

gotta love that 46driver. He's so used to be shiat on from the military that he thinks a pay cut and work rule changes are great.

46driver your getting pretty close to PFT with your attiutde. ie. I'm willing to take a pay cut just to fly in the left seat.

Other guys that are in your position but don't have that second income like you are making a stand. They are taking a stand for their self respect for themselves and everyone else in the industry.

You are just voting for yourself unaware that you are dragging down the whole industry. Just so you can get yours.

Heck you might as well work for free since you probably get all the PIC time you want. Oh flying with you as a captain must be a real treat since you are willing to sell out just to sit in the left seat.

Semper loser

 

[KingAirKiddo]

Skootertrash,

You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Our contract will not be anywhere NEAR Mesa's if this TA passes. Skywest is also leagues ahead of Mesa with their deal. Ditto with Air Wisconsin.

If you currently fly for a regional, feel free to PM me and we'll compare contracts. If you don't fly in this segment, or if you're some wannabe just get lost. These times are trying enough for everyone involved without reading flamebait from some ham headed idiot who doesn't have any knowledge of the current events.

KAK

 

[KingAirKiddo]

In other news, has anyone heard from C141FE? Haven't read any posts from him lately...hope all is well with him in the desert.

 

[46Driver]

Diesel,
Where's the love?! More importantly, where did I ever say pay cuts are great? I did say they might be necessary given the current economic situation. I did say that growth (i.e., bigger airplanes for the captains, upgrades for the F.O.'s, and a return of jobs for our furloughees) is more important than a small pay cut. Actually, my first inclination was to be stubborn and vote "No" for the reasons listed previously - I have a reserve job and can easily get a job flying helos or preferably go to grad school for a career that I truly enjoy. However, the impetus to vote "Yes" came from some of my fellow F.O.'s - most of which do not belong to a reserve unit - as well as looking at the current state of the airline industry. As for bringing down the whole industry - lets place the blame where it really belongs - on the customer who is unwilling to pay big bucks anymore to travel. The fact that this is a service industry in a capitalistic country hasn't registered with you yet. My company is in competition with your company which is in competition with the next company....

Somebody earlier in this thread said "prepare yourself for the worst case scenario". I did - I joined a reserve unit. It takes away a lot of free time and I'll probably go over to the big sandbox for a few months next year. Feel free to sign up and serve your country instead of taking a free ride on the protection that I provide. Some of our civilian pilots are contemplating service now - and I am doing everything that I can to make sure they don't get hosed by a recruiter, that they get the unit that will be most beneficial to them.

PBR,
You are right - it is an unbalanced situation - or it might be evolution. I personally believe that when the majors began to contract out flying the genie was let out of the bottle and its not going back in. The arrival of the RJ was the advance in technology that triggered this revolution and changed the balance of power from labor to management. Now you have an oversupply of carriers and pilots. You have an economy that is down and businesses that are severely curtailing travel expenses. You have majors under attack from LCC's such as SouthWest, JetBlue, AirTran, etc - and nobody is blaming them (nor should they) for "lowering the bar" and "dragging down the industry". You have customers using the internet to get bargain basement prices. You have cities paying LCC's to fly into their airports robbing the majors of significant revenue. You have an increase in both fuel prices as well as taxes for additional security. Business is business. You can adapt or go bankrupt. And no, I don't have an answer other than let the market run its course.

 

[Skull-One]

Diesel,
Feel free to sign up and serve your country instead of taking a free ride on the protection that I provide.

You really are an arrogant SOB aren't you?

Sorry, bud. I donated two parents to the cause of serving this great country, did my own bit to help (and have the torn up knee to show for it), and am now too old to go back even if I *could* pass a medical. Don't lecture me about free rides.

In the meantime, selling out your junior F/Os is a sh*tty thing to do. You should be ashamed. You have a duty to make the world a better place for those who follow. I feel sorry for the poor F/Os who will sit in the right seat for 5 years at a substandard lifestyle all because you voted to screw them for your own selfish needs.......

 

[46Driver]

Arrogant no, logical yes. The fact that I want the F.O.'s at my company to return from furlough as soon as possible (and I tried to take a voluntary leave of absence to save a spot for someone who needs this job) doesn't seem to register with you, nor does the fact that the other F.O.'s called me with the reasons they were switching their votes from "No" to "Yes". If you want to be emotional and rant, that's fine. I would prefer that you stick to the issues. What it boils down to is: "how serious is the situation for our company and what is the best course of action." Some people think the company is bluffing, others think the whole industry is in transition and we must adapt to survive. I am in the latter group.

And the two things that I find astonishing are being pilloried for my military service and for taking some individual initiative to be prepared for lean times. I do thank you for your parent's service, and I thank you for service - I wish you no ill will.

 

[Diesel]

46driver why should it be for 5 years. The company knows our weakness and is exploiting it for 5 years. That is the reason for my no vote 5 years is too long. Nothing is garanteed if this ta passes. If all aca does is fly from iad to bwi for united that is considered enough for the company to say that they have recieved a contract from united to be a codeshare.

If you listened to marty levitt the nuymber one thing managment wants is control. Thats what they get with this, control. Even if you do vote this TA in it doesn't mean that we will grow at all.

Managment isn't there to help you. they are using this as a reason to get more from the pilots with less money.

 

[46Driver]

Diesel,
Thank you for the civil tone. And if I came off as an arrogant SOB, I apologize. I do my best to think logically and state the facts as I see them - I could probably use some sensitivity training....
The 5 year thing? You are dead on. It was - and is - my #1 question and concern, especially if in 5 years contract talks drag out for another 2 or 3 years. I honestly can't give you a satisfactory answer other than what was said - United wanted a 10 year deal and this is the best we could do. I also think - like you said, there is no guarantee - that we have a better chance for growth with the TA than without. I don't know, I may go back and change my vote. In the interim, I am going to continue to read our ALPA board, call a few more friends, and contemplate the situation. I am open to more information, ideas, and suggestions.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

46,
Do not believe anything that you cannot verify, that's the first step away from the "Doom and Gloom" campaign that managment is using at every airline today. For some it may be accurate, UAL for example, SKYW used this very same debate to drive the pilots fears. They did, and it worked. Net result, SKYW vote closed, UAL announces 6 hours later 10+ year deal and profits very near pre-9/11 levels, so much doom and gloom, and it only cost the company 1% net profit. The pilots gave up nothing and thats what they will get for 18mos, but the company gets the opportunity to increase profits leaps and bounds, 50-99 seats at 2 year old 50 seat prices. Smoke and mirrors, look past and you will see.
PBR
PS My father was shot 3 times in WWII and I defended your right to be free in this country as a police officer for a more than a decade. When you wave the flag you are waving it at a nation of people who have already paid in blood for your right to wave it!

 

[46Driver]

PBR,
That's the multi-million dollar question. Is ACA in deep trouble or not? I'm not sure one way or the other myself - but I do know the entire industry is a state of revolution.

Thank you for you and your father's contribution to this great nation.

 

[FOB]

Duty or Welfare

Joining the reserves to subsidize a pay cut! Why didn't mgt think of that. That sounds more like welfare than duty. With friends like 46, we don't need ANY enemies.

As a Gulf I vet with 7 years of service, I find the flag waving bit out of line. There are way too many servicemen in aviation to pull out that card! And a good portion of those signed up due to pride and honor to do so, not to balance out sub-standard salaries.

It is like seeing the bums at intersections with fatigues on. Not respectable. Of course we could join them in our cute pilot outfits.

46, In all respect, I appreciate your service, but be careful which soap box you climb up on. I left the Army to make more money and be a good family man, not to slowly go broke and run back there to bail me out.

For the record, Saudi doesn't not rank on my list of QOL perks! We should all try harder to avoid that place.

 

[46Driver]

FOB,
I joined the reserves (which I did immediately after active duty and before joining the airlines) for 3 reasons. 1) I enjoy serving in the military and did not want to cut all of my ties. 2) With 11 years of active duty, a reserve retirement will be substantial and the healthcare a sweet bonus. 3) As an insurance policy to pay the mortgage, having a reserve billet for at least 8 years (maybe more) is hard to beat if the economy tanks (which it did) or if I want to change careers and go to graduate school (which I contemplate everyday.) It is these three reasons that I emphasize to some of the civilian pilots at the company who are contemplating signing up.

PS: If you are interested only in money, the Marines are the last branch you join.