As a Captain at ACA I can state with no emotion that the current TA will overwhelmingling pass. Why? Fear. I have had no respect for the company for quite some time but with this latest round of gloom and doom I have lost respect for not only ALPA (which was suspect at best) but also my fellow aviators at ACA. While I respect everyones right to make an informed decision I can state that our pilot group will vote based not on FACTS, but FEAR. While I used to believe that pilots were a little different than than the average, a little more willing of risk and calculated chances, the group I work with is afraid to look at themselves in the mirror. I have asked each pilot vocalizing a Yes to detail WHY. And the answer is? It's safer than a NO. Well giddy up my friend. I've heard a YES vote guarantees us A318s in 5 years. Ok, put me down for 15% paycut and start ordering the 747 400s. What a joke. This airline and this union are pathetic. I can promise you that in 18 months you wilil not find anyone admitting to voting yes. So be it. Live in fear and just remember fear will dominate the rest of your life. And please don't tell me it's just like the United situation. The union has been UNETHICAL in this situation and they will never see another dime from me. They can sue me for my dues from here on out.
Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
- Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
- Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
- Share the passion for aviation
- Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun
Goodnight Irene
- Thread starter sideshow
- Start date
- Watchers 9
Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
- Invite your friends
- Share the passion of aviation
- Friendliest aviation community on the web
It's defintely NOT pay and workrules. It's working for a fair wage and taking concessions for a clearly defined purpose. If what the union said in the roadshow was true than Skywest would have NEVER gotten a contract. But you don't care about that. You are afraid of what happens if you vote NO. No upgrade. No 70 seaters. No growth. If anyone could convince me that a YES meant the odds were in favor of that I would have voted YES. But the union was unethical in their moves and did little to convice only the uninformed why you should give away 10% of your pay for nothing.
Thank god your at ACA and not Comair where they made a real decision about what they stood for while being told they would all be out of a job as the flying was doled out to ASA. Good luck.
Thank god your at ACA and not Comair where they made a real decision about what they stood for while being told they would all be out of a job as the flying was doled out to ASA. Good luck.
You are highly stressed and seem to have "fear" on the brain. Is it some kind of Freudian thing? Besides, you say its definitely not pay and then in the next sentence you say its about a fair wage - well, which is it?
Let's put this in perspective. Family, friends, health - there are quite a few things that take precedence over this job. I don't know - maybe aviation is your whole life and you get very emotional. Hopefully, you have made contingency plans.
As for the PIC, well, first things first. Without it, you don't even have a chance to get hired so it is a prerequisite for any type of career advancement. Thus, the sooner you have it, the more likely you will be ready when opportunity knocks.
Let's put this in perspective. Family, friends, health - there are quite a few things that take precedence over this job. I don't know - maybe aviation is your whole life and you get very emotional. Hopefully, you have made contingency plans.
As for the PIC, well, first things first. Without it, you don't even have a chance to get hired so it is a prerequisite for any type of career advancement. Thus, the sooner you have it, the more likely you will be ready when opportunity knocks.
Last edited:
embraerdriver
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2003
- Posts
- 108
Concerning the comment regarding accumulating PIC time. At this time what regionals are growing?
By this I mean new a/c and subsequently new CPT positions.
I know Comair is having something like 2 new classes a month. At this time they have the best contract in the industry. Why would they be growing if they are the best compensated regional ??
By this I mean new a/c and subsequently new CPT positions.
I know Comair is having something like 2 new classes a month. At this time they have the best contract in the industry. Why would they be growing if they are the best compensated regional ??
Skull-One
Very Large Member
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2002
- Posts
- 288
I just rode on DAL yesterday. Nothing is shrinking as of now. The Captain and F/O both said DAL is cash flow neutral (i.e. they aren't bleeding money) and no proposals for additional furloughs (or pay cuts) have been brought up yet.
Don't know if this is true or not, as I have not independently verified what they said, but...
As for you PIC hogs....... Why don't you focus on making your place of work better instead of grabbing at the PIC carrot? PIC time will come. By then (with any luck) the industry will have sorted itself out some. You will have lived a good life in the meantime.
YOU'RE NOT GOING ANYWHERE FOR AWHILE. Make your bed comfortable in the interim.
Don't know if this is true or not, as I have not independently verified what they said, but...
As for you PIC hogs....... Why don't you focus on making your place of work better instead of grabbing at the PIC carrot? PIC time will come. By then (with any luck) the industry will have sorted itself out some. You will have lived a good life in the meantime.
YOU'RE NOT GOING ANYWHERE FOR AWHILE. Make your bed comfortable in the interim.
walkthasky
SWA FO
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 218
What facts on NO ?
Then what facts can you present to me if there is a NO vote. If you ask me, there arent any facts with either vote. So if youre basing your vote on facts then i guess either vote is wrong. ALPA has speculated on either vote as well as mgmt. But they have stressed that a better situation will arise with a YES vote. And if your talking about FEAR, it would seem that a NO vote is in FEAR of a paycut. Either way a vote is based on speculation and hope. There are no guarantees with this TA, whichever way it goes.
So, can I assume that youre ashamed at the United pilot group for taking concessions. They have no guarantees. The only facts they have are that they may emerge from bankruptcy by cutting costs. I have respect for them for taking a cut of their own pay to try and save their jobs. Its sad that youre ashamed to be amongst us. Personally im sick of reading all the complaining and whining and constant bashing on each other in here. If youre ashamed then perhaps youre with the wrong group of people. I cant vote yet, but I trust the rest of the pilot group to make a good decision for me. The MEC already has, and I hope that we can all prosper from the right decision.
Then what facts can you present to me if there is a NO vote. If you ask me, there arent any facts with either vote. So if youre basing your vote on facts then i guess either vote is wrong. ALPA has speculated on either vote as well as mgmt. But they have stressed that a better situation will arise with a YES vote. And if your talking about FEAR, it would seem that a NO vote is in FEAR of a paycut. Either way a vote is based on speculation and hope. There are no guarantees with this TA, whichever way it goes.
So, can I assume that youre ashamed at the United pilot group for taking concessions. They have no guarantees. The only facts they have are that they may emerge from bankruptcy by cutting costs. I have respect for them for taking a cut of their own pay to try and save their jobs. Its sad that youre ashamed to be amongst us. Personally im sick of reading all the complaining and whining and constant bashing on each other in here. If youre ashamed then perhaps youre with the wrong group of people. I cant vote yet, but I trust the rest of the pilot group to make a good decision for me. The MEC already has, and I hope that we can all prosper from the right decision.
Skull-One
Very Large Member
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2002
- Posts
- 288
46Driver said:
An excellent example. They sold out their livelihoods there for the promise of a flow through. Now, not only have they lost the flow through, but the poor guys and gals there have no quality of life to speak of in the interim (and no means of changing it for another ten years or so).
Thank you for bringing that up.
I, too, am happy about the DAL situation (if it holds or continues to improve). It would be nice for one major to avoid screwing its pilots somehow....
Skull-One: You need to check your facts on the Eagle contract. While I don't work there, the story I've heard from everyone I know there is that all 4 Eagle carriers were being played against each other. A few of the divisions had agreed to a concessionary contract in exchange for RJ's. The others were being threatened with distinction. I'm not going to say what their pilot grous did was right or wrong, but I think you're being less than honest to say Eagle singed that POS just for the flow through.
46 Driver: Just a clarification-you can take ASA off the list of places that are growing. We stopped hiring in January, and most likely won't see any new hire classes until sometime in 04. Most of the Delta RJ growth is going to CMR and CHT, with SKW picking up some more routes here and there.
Here's to ACA pilots standing their ground! Lord knows the last thing we at ASA need is another concessionary contract to fight against.
46 Driver: Just a clarification-you can take ASA off the list of places that are growing. We stopped hiring in January, and most likely won't see any new hire classes until sometime in 04. Most of the Delta RJ growth is going to CMR and CHT, with SKW picking up some more routes here and there.
Here's to ACA pilots standing their ground! Lord knows the last thing we at ASA need is another concessionary contract to fight against.
Skull-One
Very Large Member
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2002
- Posts
- 288
It doesn't matter. If everyone takes a stand then there isn't anyone to take the jets to.
The point is not that Eagle guys are wimps or anything derogatory. The point is, WE ARE NOT GOING ANYWHERE FOR A LONG TIME. Trading lifestyle for the promise of a fast upgrade (or jets, or this, or that) is fool's gold. Eagle's plight is merely an example.
*tap* *tap* *tap*
"Is this thing on?"
The point is not that Eagle guys are wimps or anything derogatory. The point is, WE ARE NOT GOING ANYWHERE FOR A LONG TIME. Trading lifestyle for the promise of a fast upgrade (or jets, or this, or that) is fool's gold. Eagle's plight is merely an example.
*tap* *tap* *tap*
"Is this thing on?"
Networ-King
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 11, 2003
- Posts
- 625
Proflyer,
Thanks for the clarification. One of my buds from ASA came over to the house and said the same thing.
Skull-one,
I believe JetBlue and a few others are hiring - or at least accepting resumes. The point being is that if you don't have the mins (i.e. PIC time) then you truly are not going anywhere for a while.
Thanks for the clarification. One of my buds from ASA came over to the house and said the same thing.
Skull-one,
I believe JetBlue and a few others are hiring - or at least accepting resumes. The point being is that if you don't have the mins (i.e. PIC time) then you truly are not going anywhere for a while.
Skull-One
Very Large Member
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2002
- Posts
- 288
46Driver said:
Yeah, and do you think they're going to hire one of us over the million furloughed guys with experience already on the street? Keep dreaming. What percentage of the pilots at ACA do you think will get hired by JetBlue in the next five years? What percentage won't? It is far more likely you will be among those that don't as opposed to those that do. So while you are waiting to move on you need to make a decent living.
Pilots are so short-sighted it embarasses me. Grab the PIC carrot and screw yourselves and everyone who follows you. That's brilliant. Not me. Regionals were a career before, they could become a career again. It is always better to be prepared for the worst case scenario. How pilots can do that in the cockpit and not outside it baffles me.
Attrition is on its way, but recent events have delayed it by probably five years. You'll have plenty of opportunity for PIC time when things cycle through again. In the meantime, go for QOL.
Last edited:
Well, you never know until you apply. You might have friends to put in a good word, you might do something to set yourself apart from the pack, you might just get lucky. The point being: to stagnate as an F.O. is not productive: one should be looking either to move up or start a new career outside of aviation (I'm halfway through my first Master's Degree). Due to the Age 60 rule, waiting is not an option, especially if there is a 5 year delay as you surmise.
As for making a decent living: many of the reserve units can bring you $50k a year if you work it right, plus retirement points. To top it off, if you pick a reserve unit in your hometown, you are home everynight - quality of life is downright excellent. Factor in choosing to live in a tax free state (and low cost area to boot) and you can see that this was methodically planned out.
As for making a decent living: many of the reserve units can bring you $50k a year if you work it right, plus retirement points. To top it off, if you pick a reserve unit in your hometown, you are home everynight - quality of life is downright excellent. Factor in choosing to live in a tax free state (and low cost area to boot) and you can see that this was methodically planned out.
Skull-One
Very Large Member
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2002
- Posts
- 288
That's a big help to all your friends who aren't in Reserve units.
As for the Age 60 Rule, that will be gone in our career, guaranteed.
Let's focus on the problem. There is nothing wrong with being a career F/O if the QOL is there. But as long as people sell themselves short to grab the PIC carrot, being an F/O will always be a substandard way to live.
Might get hired. Might have a friend. Might might might might might. *MIGHT* be stuck in a Regional for a long time. In fact, highly likely. Therefore, make being an F/O sustainable. A lot of us will be stuck in the right seat for a long time to come. Making $30K a year to do so is just plain crazy.
EVERYONE IS STAGNATING. Only a VERY small percentage are moving. Grabbing the PIC carrot and taking a QOL/Pay hit to do so is foolish. The opportunity cost of doing so is enormous.
There is no guarantee you'll get the PIC time because you take the hit. But there is a guarantee that you'll take a hit if you vote yes.
"You might upgrade faster, but you *WILL* take a pay cut." Hmmmmm.......... Another *might.*
As for the Age 60 Rule, that will be gone in our career, guaranteed.
Let's focus on the problem. There is nothing wrong with being a career F/O if the QOL is there. But as long as people sell themselves short to grab the PIC carrot, being an F/O will always be a substandard way to live.
Might get hired. Might have a friend. Might might might might might. *MIGHT* be stuck in a Regional for a long time. In fact, highly likely. Therefore, make being an F/O sustainable. A lot of us will be stuck in the right seat for a long time to come. Making $30K a year to do so is just plain crazy.
EVERYONE IS STAGNATING. Only a VERY small percentage are moving. Grabbing the PIC carrot and taking a QOL/Pay hit to do so is foolish. The opportunity cost of doing so is enormous.
There is no guarantee you'll get the PIC time because you take the hit. But there is a guarantee that you'll take a hit if you vote yes.
"You might upgrade faster, but you *WILL* take a pay cut." Hmmmmm.......... Another *might.*
Last edited:
Share this page
Latest resources
-
-
-
-
-
AC 90-89C - Amateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing HandbookAmateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing Handbook
- Neal
- Updated:
