Goodnight Irene

[sideshow]

As a Captain at ACA I can state with no emotion that the current TA will overwhelmingling pass. Why? Fear. I have had no respect for the company for quite some time but with this latest round of gloom and doom I have lost respect for not only ALPA (which was suspect at best) but also my fellow aviators at ACA. While I respect everyones right to make an informed decision I can state that our pilot group will vote based not on FACTS, but FEAR. While I used to believe that pilots were a little different than than the average, a little more willing of risk and calculated chances, the group I work with is afraid to look at themselves in the mirror. I have asked each pilot vocalizing a Yes to detail WHY. And the answer is? It's safer than a NO. Well giddy up my friend. I've heard a YES vote guarantees us A318s in 5 years. Ok, put me down for 15% paycut and start ordering the 747 400s. What a joke. This airline and this union are pathetic. I can promise you that in 18 months you wilil not find anyone admitting to voting yes. So be it. Live in fear and just remember fear will dominate the rest of your life. And please don't tell me it's just like the United situation. The union has been UNETHICAL in this situation and they will never see another dime from me. They can sue me for my dues from here on out.

 

[46Driver]

Sideshow - as a captain I assume your priority is pay and workrules. As a senior F.O., it is a different perspective - the only things that matter are growth and a chance to upgrade. The consensus among most of my peers is that its a calculated risk for PIC time.

 

[sideshow]

It's defintely NOT pay and workrules. It's working for a fair wage and taking concessions for a clearly defined purpose. If what the union said in the roadshow was true than Skywest would have NEVER gotten a contract. But you don't care about that. You are afraid of what happens if you vote NO. No upgrade. No 70 seaters. No growth. If anyone could convince me that a YES meant the odds were in favor of that I would have voted YES. But the union was unethical in their moves and did little to convice only the uninformed why you should give away 10% of your pay for nothing.

Thank god your at ACA and not Comair where they made a real decision about what they stood for while being told they would all be out of a job as the flying was doled out to ASA. Good luck.

 

[Skull-One]

PIC time? FEH. Where you gonna' go? You'll be at the Regionals for a LOOOOOOOOONG time. Better make the best of it.

 

[46Driver]

You are highly stressed and seem to have "fear" on the brain. Is it some kind of Freudian thing? Besides, you say its definitely not pay and then in the next sentence you say its about a fair wage - well, which is it?

Let's put this in perspective. Family, friends, health - there are quite a few things that take precedence over this job. I don't know - maybe aviation is your whole life and you get very emotional. Hopefully, you have made contingency plans.

As for the PIC, well, first things first. Without it, you don't even have a chance to get hired so it is a prerequisite for any type of career advancement. Thus, the sooner you have it, the more likely you will be ready when opportunity knocks.

 

[embraerdriver]

sideshow, I feel your pain man. Nothing worse than being amongst a group that doesn't feel like you do. F'em and feed em' beans! Hang in there.

 

[rjcap]

Concerning the comment regarding accumulating PIC time. At this time what regionals are growing?

By this I mean new a/c and subsequently new CPT positions.

I know Comair is having something like 2 new classes a month. At this time they have the best contract in the industry. Why would they be growing if they are the best compensated regional ??

 

[46Driver]

That's a good question. Who is growing? Comair, ASA, Chautauqua, SkyWest. All associated with Delta (whether in whole or just a percentage.) - meanwhile, Delta mainline shrinks. As for the other regionals, I am curious to hear myself. Mesa? Pinnacle? Everyone feel free to write in.

 

[Skull-One]

I just rode on DAL yesterday. Nothing is shrinking as of now. The Captain and F/O both said DAL is cash flow neutral (i.e. they aren't bleeding money) and no proposals for additional furloughs (or pay cuts) have been brought up yet.

Don't know if this is true or not, as I have not independently verified what they said, but...

As for you PIC hogs....... Why don't you focus on making your place of work better instead of grabbing at the PIC carrot? PIC time will come. By then (with any luck) the industry will have sorted itself out some. You will have lived a good life in the meantime.

YOU'RE NOT GOING ANYWHERE FOR AWHILE. Make your bed comfortable in the interim.

 

[46Driver]

"PIC time will come" - you mean like at Eagle? I've got some friends there and I feel for them.

Good to hear that about Delta.

 

[walkthasky]

What facts on NO ?

Then what facts can you present to me if there is a NO vote. If you ask me, there arent any facts with either vote. So if youre basing your vote on facts then i guess either vote is wrong. ALPA has speculated on either vote as well as mgmt. But they have stressed that a better situation will arise with a YES vote. And if your talking about FEAR, it would seem that a NO vote is in FEAR of a paycut. Either way a vote is based on speculation and hope. There are no guarantees with this TA, whichever way it goes.

So, can I assume that youre ashamed at the United pilot group for taking concessions. They have no guarantees. The only facts they have are that they may emerge from bankruptcy by cutting costs. I have respect for them for taking a cut of their own pay to try and save their jobs. Its sad that youre ashamed to be amongst us. Personally im sick of reading all the complaining and whining and constant bashing on each other in here. If youre ashamed then perhaps youre with the wrong group of people. I cant vote yet, but I trust the rest of the pilot group to make a good decision for me. The MEC already has, and I hope that we can all prosper from the right decision.

 

[Skull-One]

"PIC time will come" - you mean like at Eagle? I've got some friends there and I feel for them. So until my time comes, I will continue to drill at my unit - it makes life quite easy.

Good to hear that about Delta.

An excellent example. They sold out their livelihoods there for the promise of a flow through. Now, not only have they lost the flow through, but the poor guys and gals there have no quality of life to speak of in the interim (and no means of changing it for another ten years or so).

Thank you for bringing that up.

I, too, am happy about the DAL situation (if it holds or continues to improve). It would be nice for one major to avoid screwing its pilots somehow....

 

[PROFLYER]

Skull-One: You need to check your facts on the Eagle contract. While I don't work there, the story I've heard from everyone I know there is that all 4 Eagle carriers were being played against each other. A few of the divisions had agreed to a concessionary contract in exchange for RJ's. The others were being threatened with distinction. I'm not going to say what their pilot grous did was right or wrong, but I think you're being less than honest to say Eagle singed that POS just for the flow through.

46 Driver: Just a clarification-you can take ASA off the list of places that are growing. We stopped hiring in January, and most likely won't see any new hire classes until sometime in 04. Most of the Delta RJ growth is going to CMR and CHT, with SKW picking up some more routes here and there.

Here's to ACA pilots standing their ground! Lord knows the last thing we at ASA need is another concessionary contract to fight against.

 

[Skull-One]

It doesn't matter. If everyone takes a stand then there isn't anyone to take the jets to.

The point is not that Eagle guys are wimps or anything derogatory. The point is, WE ARE NOT GOING ANYWHERE FOR A LONG TIME. Trading lifestyle for the promise of a fast upgrade (or jets, or this, or that) is fool's gold. Eagle's plight is merely an example.

*tap* *tap* *tap*

"Is this thing on?"

 

[PROFLYER]

Skull- I agree with what you're saying. Unfortunately for all of us, there is always going to be a few groups that are not willing to take a stand. Good luck!

 

[Networ-King]

I hate to be the one to say this, but its a 100% chance that the Delta pilot group will take a pay cut. How much? Dunno, but they WILL take a paycut. I just hope we can get this bunch of managment losers out before they rob Delta of anymore funds. Just my .01 1/2 cents. Hope Im wrong.

 

[46Driver]

Proflyer,
Thanks for the clarification. One of my buds from ASA came over to the house and said the same thing.

Skull-one,
I believe JetBlue and a few others are hiring - or at least accepting resumes. The point being is that if you don't have the mins (i.e. PIC time) then you truly are not going anywhere for a while.

 

[Skull-One]

Proflyer,
Thanks for the clarification. One of my buds from ASA came over to the house and said the same thing.

Skull-one,
I believe JetBlue and a few others are hiring - or at least accepting resumes. The point being is that if you don't have the mins (i.e. PIC time) then you truly are not going anywhere for a while.

Yeah, and do you think they're going to hire one of us over the million furloughed guys with experience already on the street? Keep dreaming. What percentage of the pilots at ACA do you think will get hired by JetBlue in the next five years? What percentage won't? It is far more likely you will be among those that don't as opposed to those that do. So while you are waiting to move on you need to make a decent living.

Pilots are so short-sighted it embarasses me. Grab the PIC carrot and screw yourselves and everyone who follows you. That's brilliant. Not me. Regionals were a career before, they could become a career again. It is always better to be prepared for the worst case scenario. How pilots can do that in the cockpit and not outside it baffles me.

Attrition is on its way, but recent events have delayed it by probably five years. You'll have plenty of opportunity for PIC time when things cycle through again. In the meantime, go for QOL.

 

[46Driver]

Well, you never know until you apply. You might have friends to put in a good word, you might do something to set yourself apart from the pack, you might just get lucky. The point being: to stagnate as an F.O. is not productive: one should be looking either to move up or start a new career outside of aviation (I'm halfway through my first Master's Degree). Due to the Age 60 rule, waiting is not an option, especially if there is a 5 year delay as you surmise.

As for making a decent living: many of the reserve units can bring you $50k a year if you work it right, plus retirement points. To top it off, if you pick a reserve unit in your hometown, you are home everynight - quality of life is downright excellent. Factor in choosing to live in a tax free state (and low cost area to boot) and you can see that this was methodically planned out.

 

[Skull-One]

That's a big help to all your friends who aren't in Reserve units.

As for the Age 60 Rule, that will be gone in our career, guaranteed.

Let's focus on the problem. There is nothing wrong with being a career F/O if the QOL is there. But as long as people sell themselves short to grab the PIC carrot, being an F/O will always be a substandard way to live.


Might get hired. Might have a friend. Might might might might might. *MIGHT* be stuck in a Regional for a long time. In fact, highly likely. Therefore, make being an F/O sustainable. A lot of us will be stuck in the right seat for a long time to come. Making $30K a year to do so is just plain crazy.


EVERYONE IS STAGNATING. Only a VERY small percentage are moving. Grabbing the PIC carrot and taking a QOL/Pay hit to do so is foolish. The opportunity cost of doing so is enormous.


There is no guarantee you'll get the PIC time because you take the hit. But there is a guarantee that you'll take a hit if you vote yes.


"You might upgrade faster, but you *WILL* take a pay cut." Hmmmmm.......... Another *might.*

 

[46Driver]

While this whole industry is in turmoil, start looking around to see how you can beat the system. As Tony Curtis said in Operation Petticoat, "There is opportunity in chaos."
Besides, even a paycut as a Captain is still substantially higher than the original F.O. pay.

 

[Skull-One]

Spoken like a true Jarhead. Semper Fi...or somethin'.....

 

[PBRstreetgang]

46,
"As a senior F.O., it is a different perspective - the only things that matter are growth and a chance to upgrade. The consensus among most of my peers is that its a calculated risk for PIC time."

As a senior 5+ years F/O the only thing that matters is QOL for all the pilots on the senority list, your willingness to step all over your fellow senority listers is appalling, get mine, before anyonelse at any cost , your unbridled greed will cost you thousands. You will get the "growth" you need so badly, then the "majors" will not hire anyone because you were so busy "getting your PIC time" at any cost, then you can get plenty of PIC time for a lot less $.$$ because you dropped the bar so low, the majors decide to grow you more because of your low costs.
This short sighted, get mine now, mentality will get us all in the endgame.
sorry about the run-on I got spooled up reading this tripe and am gonna go outside and stare at the sun.
PBR
oh yeh-semper fi , oopps I guess it only applies to Marines.

 

[46Driver]

Growth is a win-win for our company. The furloughees come back to work, the F.O.'s upgrade to captain (and thus either get a pay raise or have a chance to move to a bigger airline), and the senior captains get bigger airplanes and thus more money. What is bad about any of that? What is bad about wanting my company to do well?

Even with the TA, our contract is still relatively good and our "bar" is still higher than many other carriers. And it is my opinion that with the current state of the industry that we will have to take concessions - just like UAL, US Air, etc.... especially since we are an independant carrier bidding to work for United.

And finally, quite a few of the other hard-charging pilots (captains and F.O.'s) have been asking me about the reserves - for such reasons as extra income, furlough protection and the QOL.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Ok still seeing spots from staring at the sun.
There is nothing wrong with wanting your company to do well.

The problem lies with an unbalanced situation, which is where it is now.
the majors have relied upon the regionals to provide low cost feed for the mainline operations. Usually around 10% of the total seats. As they see the glow around the edges from using low cost flying(you),
the majors will do anything they can to get cheap flying, to the regionals. As time goes on your senority lengthens and your cost to the company goes up increasing the cost to the mainline carrier. You say so what? When your costs get too high,
poof, your carrier does not get its contract renewed. I wonder how long your company will keep you on the payroll after loosing the flying to mesa or some other low cost carrier to be formed in the future. You think it can not happen? Ask any number of Westair pilots who were furloughed after UAL cancelled the Westair contract and awarded it to SKYW.
The only thing that stands between this occurring over and over again would be a unified pilot group(all), with contracts, unity and the ability to agree. Seeing how you are willing to take any number of UAL, DAL,AAL,CAL or any number of other pilots jobs away because you need the "PIC" this will probably happen and you and lots of other pilots will be working at Lowes and the reserve. If you cannot see the folly of your position, do nothing get that "PIC", and pretend it will not happen to me.
Good luck
PBR

 

[skootertrash]

So ACA how does it feel to be in the same group as Mesa and Skywest. At least Air Whisky had a great contract before they had to slash it to compete with the MESA WHORES. You are going from OK to MESA in one vote.

 

[sideshow]

Then what facts can you present to me if there is a NO vote. If you ask me, there arent any facts with either vote. So if youre basing your vote on facts then i guess either vote is wrong. ALPA has speculated on either vote as well as mgmt. But they have stressed that a better situation will arise with a YES vote. And if your talking about FEAR, it would seem that a NO vote is in FEAR of a paycut. Either way a vote is based on speculation and hope. There are no guarantees with this TA, whichever way it goes.

Let's be clear that a better situation MIGHT arise with a YES vote and that better situation is more profit for ACA. Great, I'm a shareholder and since we can get a 10% wage reduction JUST FOR ASKING FOR IT. You're right. What was I thinking.

Do you not find it at all interesting that we, the pilots, cannot even see the results of the pole that WE paid for?
Do you not find it interesting that the Union told us WE must take paycuts because it's a line item blah....blah....blah?
But, if that's the case then SKYWEST wouldn't have gotten the UEX contract. Bain would have flat out gave their flying to MESA or whomever the lowest bidder is.
Remember in the beginning of all the TA talk it was that COST WAS the ONLY DETERMINING FACTOR.

My how things have changed. Our problem is not that pilots are overpaid. Our CEO got 14 million dollars last year and our airline is one of the poorest run on the planet. That's why we can't compete. Why would you pay high prices AND get crappy service. In the case of SKYWEST they may be paying more but they are getting a good product.

I'm in no FEAR at all of a paycut but why take one if it is not absolutely necessary. You and everyone else that wants to vote YES because you think the MEC is looking out for you is exactly why they can count on you taking another pay cut or changing the work rules or anything else later on.

So, can I assume that youre ashamed at the United pilot group for taking concessions. They have no guarantees. The only facts they have are that they may emerge from bankruptcy by cutting costs. I have respect for them for taking a cut of their own pay to try and save their jobs. Its sad that youre ashamed to be amongst us. Personally im sick of reading all the complaining and whining and constant bashing on each other in here. If youre ashamed then perhaps youre with the wrong group of people. I cant vote yet, but I trust the rest of the pilot group to make a good decision for me. The MEC already has, and I hope that we can all prosper from the right decision.

For anyone to construe that our situation is in any way similar to United's, you have to be uninformed to the point of idiocy. I'm glad you are comfortable delegating your decision making to others. You will go far.

 

[sideshow]

skootertrash, you must be sniffing glue again if can compare Mesa and Skywest. Nice post otherwise.

 

[Diesel]

gotta love that 46driver. He's so used to be shiat on from the military that he thinks a pay cut and work rule changes are great.

46driver your getting pretty close to PFT with your attiutde. ie. I'm willing to take a pay cut just to fly in the left seat.

Other guys that are in your position but don't have that second income like you are making a stand. They are taking a stand for their self respect for themselves and everyone else in the industry.

You are just voting for yourself unaware that you are dragging down the whole industry. Just so you can get yours.

Heck you might as well work for free since you probably get all the PIC time you want. Oh flying with you as a captain must be a real treat since you are willing to sell out just to sit in the left seat.

Semper loser

 

[KingAirKiddo]

Skootertrash,

You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Our contract will not be anywhere NEAR Mesa's if this TA passes. Skywest is also leagues ahead of Mesa with their deal. Ditto with Air Wisconsin.

If you currently fly for a regional, feel free to PM me and we'll compare contracts. If you don't fly in this segment, or if you're some wannabe just get lost. These times are trying enough for everyone involved without reading flamebait from some ham headed idiot who doesn't have any knowledge of the current events.

KAK