Goodbye ASA!!!

[JoeMerchant]

I counted JB as a friend until he helped put the knife in my back... thank God I got on with American soon after and was free of the tangled web they weaved.... but in a nutshell, while I agree with some of what JB says, in the end, he's been part of the problem, and not the solution regarding ALPA/regionals and the mainline.

How has that American job worked out for you? You wanted the ASA pilots to become furlough fodder for the Delta pilots.....Many of us are glad you didn't get your way....How long have you been furloughed now from American?

 

[HA25]

..How long have you been furloughed now from American?

too long old friend... too long.. But glad to hear things are going well at the regionals... hiring your low time girls and boys, training them for that left seat in the fancy CRJ... so they can fly more mainline pax to destinations hitherto flown to by the mainline.... yep, at this rate, It'll be another 9 years before American needs meh... You see John, what you never got was that it's a zero sum game... when you get more RJ's we get less Boeings and Airbuses... and the net result is more lower paying jobs for our "profession".

Good on you.

 

[PCL_128]

I counted JB as a friend until he helped put the knife in my back...

What exactly did he do?

 

[HA25]

What exactly did he do?

out of respect for him, and the fact that this is now over 10 years old.. I'll send you a PM about it.

 

[crj567]

out of respect for him, and the fact that this is now over 10 years old.. I'll send you a PM about it.

"Respect for him?" The guy is a complete RJDC freakshow! Joe is no one's friend-his job in life is to bash pretty much everything union and give no alternatives! The RJDC is dead as "Hanson's" career-and joemerchant never got the memo!!!!

-The damn thing died like 8 years ago-wake up toolster!

 

[HA25]

"Respect for him?" The guy is a complete RJDC freakshow! Joe is no one's friend-his job in life is to bash pretty much everything union and give no alternatives! The RJDC is dead as "Hanson's" career-and joemerchant never got the memo!!!!

-The damn thing died like 8 years ago-wake up toolster!

While I agree, that doesn't seem to have panned out into the outcome I had hopped... last I checked, the RJ operators hired 90% of the pilots out there over the pasts 8 years while the mainline hired a smattering, most of whom are back on the street today. Face it, John won.. ASA is 3X it's size when I joined them in 97... AMR (factoring out the TWA merger) is 10% smaller. I would venture to guess the DAL/NWA combined company is also a fraction of what DAL and MWA alone were back in the late 90's.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I am sure that one of those people is the other Andrew that works for the Feds in SLC that was an ASA pilot.

Best of luck!

 

[enuffalready]

too long old friend... too long.. But glad to hear things are going well at the regionals... hiring your low time girls and boys, training them for that left seat in the fancy CRJ... so they can fly more mainline pax to destinations hitherto flown to by the mainline.... yep, at this rate, It'll be another 9 years before American needs meh... You see John, what you never got was that it's a zero sum game... when you get more RJ's we get less Boeings and Airbuses... and the net result is more lower paying jobs for our "profession".

Good on you.

Like JB or not, there are some of us that plan on staying at ASA. I too will fight for bigger aircraft and pay at my airline at your expense if necessary. It never ceases to amaze me when 'major' guys fight for scope and we are all supposed to cheer, but when we fight for 90 seaters or more 70's we are told to be thankful for what we have.. next time I will just say 'thank ya massa'

I know the risk i take at ASA. I know we exist at the discretion of Delta and could be shut down on a whim. I will take that risk and if we close, then so be it. You took a risk when you left ASA for a 'major'. I had friends go to airtran 7-8 years ago because the wanted to stay in atlanta. Those guys are all left seaters now making a decent pay check and don't have to commute anywhere. They knew the risk of going with airtran versus SW, FEDEX or Delta, etc and they took that risk. Airtran may be gone in 3 years and they accept that risk when they left ASA.

stop beotching about RJ's flying mainline routes and no new boeings etc, you made that choice all by your big boy self. The victim mentality of the majority of people in this country is astonishing..

 

[HA25]

Like JB or not, there are some of us that plan on staying at ASA. I too will fight for bigger aircraft and pay at my airline at your expense if necessary. It never ceases to amaze me when 'major' guys fight for scope and we are all supposed to cheer, but when we fight for 90 seaters or more 70's we are told to be thankful for what we have.. next time I will just say 'thank ya massa'

I know the risk i take at ASA. I know we exist at the discretion of Delta and could be shut down on a whim. I will take that risk and if we close, then so be it. You took a risk when you left ASA for a 'major'. I had friends go to airtran 7-8 years ago because the wanted to stay in atlanta. Those guys are all left seaters now making a decent pay check and don't have to commute anywhere. They knew the risk of going with airtran versus SW, FEDEX or Delta, etc and they took that risk. Airtran may be gone in 3 years and they accept that risk when they left ASA.

stop beotching about RJ's flying mainline routes and no new boeings etc, you made that choice all by your big boy self. The victim mentality of the majority of people in this country is astonishing..

And there you have it ladies and gentleman... THE PROBLEM with our profession.

Lowest bidder will always win!

Grats enuff... you won.. Since American, I've bounced from one low paying job to another, and all the same time you've been at the same low paying job.. you won.

 

[DrunkIrishman]

It doesn't matter how big the airplane is; the only thing that matters is how big is your paycheck and how much time do you get at home. We can all argue about stability, but that is a pretty useless argument to make with airlines.

The more jobs get converted from "mainline" to "regional," the more the wages decrease for the same job. Given the mission of the regionals, days at home can also decrease when this transition happens.

If you want to make the "I told you so" argument that the regionals have done better than the majors over the last 10 years, then you would have to ignore the paycheck and the days at home. It was only recently that ASA got 12 days off as a minimum...not sure on that BTW, but I believe it is correct. When I was at ASA, the lines I bid on had mostly 10 or 11 days off and the number of lines with more decreased sharply at 12 and up. Pay...you cannot compare them; Delta pilots make more as a whole by far.

So what are you trying to say I told you so about?

 

[HA25]

It doesn't matter how big the airplane is; the only thing that matters is how big is your paycheck and how much time do you get at home. We can all argue about stability, but that is a pretty useless argument to make with airlines.

The more jobs get converted from "mainline" to "regional," the more the wages decrease for the same job. Given the mission of the regionals, days at home can also decrease when this transition happens.

If you want to make the "I told you so" argument that the regionals have done better than the majors over the last 10 years, then you would have to ignore the paycheck and the days at home. It was only recently that ASA got 12 days off as a minimum...not sure on that BTW, but I believe it is correct. When I was at ASA, the lines I bid on had mostly 10 or 11 days off and the number of lines with more decreased sharply at 12 and up. Pay...you cannot compare them; Delta pilots make more as a whole by far.

So what are you trying to say I told you so about?

I fought (and lost) this battle over 10 years ago... Like I said, 3 jobs later, no stability, and (baring my contact work, pure luck).. no real pay.. They won, they got the 90 seaters, the EMB-190's and soon, we'll be farming out wide body flying to the "Regionals"... The winner in all of this, the ATA.

 

[FightingIrish]

FMS-Speed, aren't you the guy that tried to go behind the ASA MEC's back and cut a flowthrough deal directly with Delta MEC? That wasn't very popular and I believe many people told you that. You tried to undermine the ASA MEC with the Delta MEC just so you could get a Delta number. I don't see how what you tried to do helped the current situation at all.

 

[HA25]

FMS-Speed, aren't you the guy that tried to go behind the ASA MEC's back and cut a flowthrough deal directly with Delta MEC? That wasn't very popular and I believe many people told you that. You tried to undermine the ASA MEC with the Delta MEC just so you could get a Delta number. I don't see how what you tried to do helped the current situation at all.

I see you've been doing post searches and are now following my other threads about JB? Too funny.. So who pray tell are you, since you seem to KNOW me? Re-read my post above and you'll see what the truth is about this so called "Deal". I was being snuffed out, figuratively being shut up by black mail... nothing more.

And no, I didn't make any back door deals.. I had no position at the ASA MEC, which is generally required to make such "deals" ... but I did (for the record) support a staple job for us, as part of the DAL contract 2000... which fell on deaf ears at the ASA MEC. YES.

 

[FightingIrish]

I see you've been doing post searches and are now following my other threads about JB? Too funny.. So who pray tell are you, since you seem to KNOW me? Re-read my post above and you'll see what the truth is about this so called "Deal". I was being snuffed out, figuratively being shut up by black mail... nothing more.

And no, I didn't make any back door deals.. I had no position at the ASA MEC, which is generally required to make such "deals" ... but I did (for the record) support a staple job for us, as part of the DAL contract 2000... which fell on deaf ears at the ASA MEC. YES.

Actually you told me who you are in a PM. You also told me yourself that you pushed for a flowthrough with Delta. That isn't popular with the ASA pilots. Look how it worked for the Eagle pilots. I just don't see how that fixes this problem.

 

[HA25]

Actually you told me who you are in a PM. You also told me yourself that you pushed for a flowthrough with Delta. That isn't popular with the ASA pilots. Look how it worked for the Eagle pilots. I just don't see how that fixes this problem.

My push was done in a purely ethical manner... the flowthru wasn't what I was pushing for, but a staple, with DOH for pay, but not bid.. I.E. the 15 year ASA CRJ CA, couldn't bid ahead of any DAL pilot, but he loses 0 in terms of pay. We then would have had a unified seniority list with one goal.. what we are left with now is two competing lists, one of which is squarely on the side of management (that of the regional).

Sorry if I though you were post-haunting me... people (with no life) around here tend to do that stuff.

 

[FightingIrish]

My push was done in a purely ethical manner... the flowthru wasn't what I was pushing for, but a staple, with DOH for pay, but not bid.. I.E. the 15 year ASA CRJ CA, couldn't bid ahead of any DAL pilot, but he loses 0 in terms of pay. We then would have had a unified seniority list with one goal.. what we are left with now is two competing lists, one of which is squarely on the side of management (that of the regional).

Sorry if I though you were post-haunting me... people (with no life) around here tend to do that stuff.

No worries. It's been awhile since we talked, but you were looking for work over a year ago and I had suggested maybe coming back to ASA as we were hiring then (obviously that has changed). You were actually interested in that prospect. That is why you have to understand the point of view of some of us who have chosen to stay here. Your proposal at the time would have resulted in senior ASA pilots getting bumped out of their cushy schedules. You won't get anywhere if you propose that.

I agree that we need to work together, but I think that mainline pilots have to understand the position of the "lifers" if we are going to work together.

Are you still flying? Good luck.

 

[HA25]

No worries. It's been awhile since we talked, but you were looking for work over a year ago and I had suggested maybe coming back to ASA as we were hiring then (obviously that has changed). You were actually interested in that prospect. That is why you have to understand the point of view of some of us who have chosen to stay here. Your proposal at the time would have resulted in senior ASA pilots getting bumped out of their cushy schedules. You won't get anywhere if you propose that.

I agree that we need to work together, but I think that mainline pilots have to understand the position of the "lifers" if we are going to work together.

Are you still flying? Good luck.

Yeah, the going back was a non-starter because I think I burned bridges there with senior pilots, plus I would have only taken a direct entry CA job as I couldn't afford the other option and that wasn't being offered (they did this back when I was there... they hired a few guys back from Pan Am that were direct entry CA's on the ATR).

Back when we talked, I believe I was working for Gemini and was getting weary of their long term prospects (I was proven correct when they finally shut down). I have since worked at Skybus (along with furloughed pilots from just about every major airline, and some retired ones as well).. which also subsequently failed.

I am currently a contract pilot on the A320 for a leasing company in in the Southwest US. I am doing "ok" with it, but it's not full time.. and not long term / steady work.

 

[enuffalready]

And there you have it ladies and gentleman... THE PROBLEM with our profession.

Lowest bidder will always win!

Grats enuff... you won.. Since American, I've bounced from one low paying job to another, and all the same time you've been at the same low paying job.. you won.

I truly am sorry for anyone's misfortune that you and/or your family have suffered, but like it or not we live in a world of moral hazard. if you were a stud navy guy 40 years ago you went to TWA, Pan Am or Eastern,... all gone. We all take chances and measure risks with any decision we make or action we take. If i stay at ASA there is a risk, if i leave there is a risk. Neither of those risks are anyone elses reponsibility but mine. If i stay I will fight for better QOL at ASA, if i choose to leave, I will fight for the best possible condtions for me and my family, whether i move to fly a 757 or sit in a desk in a building somewhere.

You can choose to call that 'a problem with our profession'

I choose to call it being self sufficient regardless of what happens.

 

[HA25]

I choose to call it being self sufficient regardless of what happens.

I played the self sufficient game quit well; do you know how much hell I get for going to work for Skybus? I know it's dog eat dog.. but I TRIED my best to do it right.. I went to a "commuter" (as ASA was known back in the mid 90's).. and I got on with the MAJOR.. I didn't go there to make a career of it. Had scope clauses not been destroyed so badly (partly due to APA, and partly due to ALPA) I, and likely you would be there now.. and ASA would still have 600 pilots, mostly younger and building time, providing feed from Dothan to ATL and not flying ATL to ELP (or where ever trans con's you're all doing now)..

It's broken, and you all helped break it.. that's my point.

 

[FightingIrish]

Back when we talked, I believe I was working for Gemini and was getting weary of their long term prospects (I was proven correct when they finally shut down). I have since worked at Skybus (along with furloughed pilots from just about every major airline, and some retired ones as well).. which also subsequently failed.

How can you go to work for Skybus and then lecture anyone else about "hurting the profession". You did what you needed to do, but you are contributing to the same problem that you criticize others for. I am sorry that things haven't worked out for you, but attacking those of us at ASA isn't helping.