Good First Officers?

[Ty Webb]

Shows how little you know, kid, I was already a jet Captain before you hid your first gerbil.

 

[Flechas]

I feel it for all the FO's you've flown with Captain Ty.

 

[Ty Webb]

And I wonder why I usually don't spend much time on the Regionals board . . bunch of pole-smokin' hamster-hiding-living in the parents' basement nancy-boys over here.

Heh-heh.

 

[Flechas]

Hahaha. Calm down Mr. Major Airline Captain. I'm sure you atarted your career as a major pilot, making big money and flying all over the world.

Go keep jerking off...

 

[-9Capt]

BTW- -9 CAPT enlightened me on the ATIS and clearnace debate, so I do apologize for that, though I still never heard anyone actually use this practice.

I'd bet Ty's annual salary it was a carry over from Eastern Airlines, a lot of our standard practices are Eastern inspired (especially back when we had DC-9's).

 

[FlyChicaga]

I'll somewhat side with Ty on this one. I flew with a Captain not-to-long-ago who really was one of the greatest guys I've had the pleasure of being on a trip with. Really, a whole damm lot of fun, but at the same time very professional. We could joke around and have a good time without interferring with communication or procedure. Anyways, he did something which I picked up on and now do all the time. When he'd get the ATIS, either from ACARS or over COM2, he would brief me on it. It would go something like, "Ready for ATIS? Ok, info Oscar is current. Winds are 200 at 15 knots, visibility is unlimited, broken layer at 5500, temp/dewpoint spread is 23 and 15, altimeter is 30.00. They are using the runway 22L ILS approach, and I have you bugged for a Flaps 45 landing using 42,000 speeds for a landing weight of 41,200 lbs. Cool?"

I do the same thing now when it comes to the weight and balance and takeoff data. I'll brief what the takeoff weight restriction is, and what I put in for the takeoff thrust setting. Something like, "We'll be landing structural restricted to 47,315 lbs, and I have us planned off runway 4L for a reduced thrust takeoff." This usually leads into either of our departure briefings.

I really think that communicating this stuff, although possibly repetitive, ensures we both know what is going on, and there aren't any surprises. Plus, it takes maybe two minutes to accomplish, then we can resume our normally scheduled discussions about which overnight in Canada has the hotter women (I think Quebec), or which beer is better for the soul.

 

[Flechas]

Hey Matt, what Ty is saying is that both pilots have to listen to the ATIS tigether, and that if you do what you just described (get it and then brief it), then you are not as good as he is.

 

[FlyChicaga]

Hey Matt, what Ty is saying is that both pilots have to listen to the ATIS tigether, and that if you do what you just described (get it and then brief it), then you are not as good as he is.

I don't think it was a "must", but instead a "courtesy."

Oh, yeah, the radio . . . . when you are getting the ATIS and clearance, it's common courtesy to say, "ATIS (or clearance) coming up on Com 2" or something like that . . . always appreciated, by me at least.

I don't see much harm in that. If I'm getting clearance or ATIS from a non-D-ATIS/PDC airport, it would be even easier to just let him listen-in instead of me briefing him on it. That way, he can hear it, and I can keep working. Save the time to ensure he knows the clearance and/or ATIS. For me personally, if he didn't listen in, I'd just say "here's the ATIS and clearance" and go through it. Just today we were given a different DP out of IAH on the PDC, so I briefed the Captain that we had a new routing for departure. No biggie, just ensuring everyone is kept in the loop and the job is done right. I just see that's what Ty is talking about.

Check out the ASAP reports each month posted in the crew rooms, and how many times people write-in about FMS entry and routing errors from the clearance. Not a huge issue going from IND-EWR, but might be a massive issue when filed MLM-LAX or something over mountainous terrain. Or worse when there is a taxiway closure reported on ATIS, which you don't write down (we know how those can be). Then when your Captain takes it on the ground and turns into a dug-up high-speed... wasn't there an interview scenario like that last year?

I know I'm coming across as really dorkish and anal, but I've read through so many NTSB reports where an accident might not have happened if people were properly communicating and verifying their actions with one another. Both up front between the pilots, and between the cockpit and cabin as well.

 

[PCL_128]

Hey Matt, what Ty is saying is that both pilots have to listen to the ATIS tigether, and that if you do what you just described (get it and then brief it), then you are not as good as he is.

What Ty is saying is that at AirTran, the required procedure per the manual is to listen to it together. If that's true, then listening and then briefing is not the proper way to do it at AirTran. Just do whatever the book says at your company. Pretty simple.

 

[Flechas]

Anyways, he did something which I picked up on and now do all the time. When he'd get the ATIS, either from ACARS or over COM2, he would brief me on it. It would go something like, "Ready for ATIS? Ok, info Oscar is current. Winds are 200 at 15 knots, visibility is unlimited, broken layer at 5500, temp/dewpoint spread is 23 and 15, altimeter is 30.00. They are using the runway 22L ILS approach, and I have you bugged for a Flaps 45 landing using 42,000 speeds for a landing weight of 41,200 lbs. Cool?"

I don't see much harm in that. If I'm getting clearance or ATIS from a non-D-ATIS/PDC airport, it would be even easier to just let him listen-in instead of me briefing him on it. That way, he can hear it, and I can keep working. Save the time to ensure he knows the clearance and/or ATIS. For me personally, if he didn't listen in, I'd just say "here's the ATIS and clearance" and go through it. Just today we were given a different DP out of IAH on the PDC, so I briefed the Captain that we had a new routing for departure. No biggie, just ensuring everyone is kept in the loop and the job is done right. I just see that's what Ty is talking about.

So which one is it then? You are saying you do two different things here. Theres nothing wrong with doing either, which is what I've been trying to say, as long as both pilots know whats going on with the ATIS and clearance. But your friend Ty sais that to be a good FO you have to hold hands with your captain and listen to the ATIS together.

 

[Flechas]

What Ty is saying is that at AirTran, the required procedure per the manual is to listen to it together. If that's true, then listening and then briefing is not the proper way to do it at AirTran. Just do whatever the book says at your company. Pretty simple.

That's what I've been saying, but that's not good enough for him.

It's not about being superior, maybe that's the way they learned and the way you learned. Our company culture is to write it down and then then brief it, which is just as good.

Ok Ty, so tell me what's so wrong with writting down the ATIS on a piece of paper and then showing the Captain, same with the clearance. As far as I'm concerned it is the same as listening to it together.
I'm not saying what you are doing is wrong, but that doesn't mean is the only way to do it.

The only reason this dicussion started is because I asked you what you meant about listening to the ATIS together, because I had never heard of such practice, and you turned the whole thing into a pissing contest. I've jumpeated with Continental and NWA and never saw that either.

 

[FlyChicaga]

Me personally, I brief the Captain on the ATIS and clearance for departure and approach. That is whether I got it via ACARS or COM2. Normally if the Captain heard it and understood it, then they'll tell me so and I can skip it. Just because I'm listening to ATIS or getting the clearance with the Captain in the cockpit, they could be distracted with other things. I can't just assume they heard it.

The example I gave above was "IF" I was flying with Ty, what I'd do based on his requests for ATIS and clearance courtesy.

 

[Flechas]

Me personally, I brief the Captain on the ATIS and clearance for departure and approach. That is whether I got it via ACARS or COM2. Normally if the Captain heard it and understood it, then they'll tell me so and I can skip it. Just because I'm listening to ATIS or getting the clearance with the Captain in the cockpit, they could be distracted with other things. I can't just assume they heard it.

The example I gave above was "IF" I was flying with Ty, what I'd do based on his requests for ATIS and clearance courtesy.

Fair enough I guess. I do the same, I guess we all do the same.

I think we made a really big deal out of this.

 

[FlyChicaga]

I think we made a really big deal out of this.

Par for the course! After all, this is the internet!!

 

[-9Capt]

The more I think about it, I'm pretty sure it's only the clearance (not the ATIS) that's addressed in our FOM.

I think this horse has been beat to death.