Good Community College Pilot Programs?

[pilotyip]

95% of applicants have a 4-yr degree

Again if 95% of those applying have degrees and 17 out of 206 (1 out of 18) get hired and the 206 number represents 95% of the total interview population. Then 217 would represent the entire interview population including those without a four-year degree. This would mean that 1 out of 11 (217-206) of the non-degreed pilots were hired in your class, that is a better ratio than 1 out of 18.

 

[bobbysamd]

Bobby says that college and the degree is the only way that a rational thinking person would ever consider getting additional skills.

I did not put it in those absolute terms. I am saying that college is one way to hone thinking and analytical skills, which every pilot needs. I am saying, emphatically, that the degree is a vital, necessary credential for a pilot's repertoire. And, yes, I am saying that a degree levels the playing field and improves the odds of success.

I also submit that but for "that magic piece of paper" pilots will hit a glass ceiling.

Skilled interviews and broad mined HR specialists look at the whole man concept in hire the best candidate.

Sadly, and speaking from personal experience, there are few broad-minded HR specialists anymore. Most of them are narrow-minded coneheads, hell-bent on fitting square pegs to square holes. Why? Because it's easier. Therefore, if there is something you want, such as the job you want, give them what they want. Case in point:

Out of 18 people, one did not have a college degree and 17 did. Another way to look at it is like this: roughly 1 out of every 18 people interviewed who did not have a degree were selected for the job based on my class. I should also note, that this person wasn't the typical 4000 hour new-hire either. This person's experience included over 10,000 hours of flying, and many years to gain it. This was also just prior to 9/11 and the subsequent recession.

I'm not saying it can't be done, but the odds were not in someone's favor before 9/11, and it has only gotten worse since.

(emphasis added)

Bingo.

 

[pilotyip]

We also agree

Sadly, and speaking from personal experience, there are few broad-minded HR specialists anymore. Most of them are narrow-minded coneheads, hell-bent on fitting square pegs to square holes. Why? Because it's easier.

Well said, fortunately SWA and JB have a better screening method.

 

[bobbysamd]

Well said, fortunately SWA and JB have a better screening method.

And, your company, apparently. But these are only three out of how many?

Back in "the day," if an applicant came along that might be slightly deficient or different but otherwise exhibited potential, HR would try to qualify that person for the job. That meant that it had to actually think, and, heaven forbid, actually give that person a chance. These days, you have to fit the profile. No exceptions. The argument can be made that these companies miss out on great people, but they don't care one way or another about hiring great people and because it's easy to find candidates who fit the profile exactly.

All that aside, companies establish requirements. That, together with the applicant pool's overall qualfications, determines the actual hiring profile. Therefore, if, as Yip has stated, ninety-five percent of the application pool has the degree, and, with the understanding that this is the group being hired, aren't the odds against you if you don't have the degree? Once again, there are always exceptions.

We could go in circles on this all day . . . . . . <sigh>

 

[Clyde]

Again if 95% of those applying have degrees and 17 out of 206 (1 out of 18) get hired and the 206 number represents 95% of the total interview population. Then 217 would represent the entire interview population including those without a four-year degree. This would mean that 1 out of 11 (217-206) of the non-degreed pilots were hired in your class, that is a better ratio than 1 out of 18.

I think we hired about 200 in 2001, and then stopped in September of 2001. We just recently started hiring again.

Now, keep in mind, that not every class had at least one person without a college degree in it, so the ratio might even be worse. I don't have the demographics, but I know a lot were former military and several actually had Master's degrees as well. I know this because I crash padded with several of them and I got to know several of the others as well.

I see where you were going with your numbers up there, but they don't work regarding my particular class. What would be more interesting, is to see how many interviewed that had no college and how many actually go hired.

 

[Doubleo6point9]

Metro State College of Denver is a good choice as someone mentioned earlier. If you're in state, it only costs about 1200 a semester at 16 credit hours and it has fairly good aviation program with some great classes such as their BE-1900D turboprop class.

What I think would work best though is to major in something else aside from Aviation and minor in their aviation program so that you have something else to fall back on incase the aviation field doesn't work out so well for you.

 

[Jimmy V.]

Hi Guys!

I never thought I would post regarding this topic. My father retired earlier this summer from Scandinavia Airlines Systems (SAS) he was based in Stockholm, Sweden his entire career. He, along with the majority of the pilots does not have a college degree. It is not a requirement at SAS, but still they fly the same equipment that the majors in the U.S operate. My dad flew the next generation 737's and the Airbus 319-21. I am not going to make an argument for or against a degree here but I do find it intereseting that a degree is such a big deal here and then in Europe employers really do not care about it. After all if they are all doing the same job.

Jimmy

 

[Vik]

Its just another requirement to limit the size of the hiring pool b/c there are too many pilots in the U.S. looking for jobs. Easiest way to make a cut is to require a 4yr degree.

Hi Guys!

I never thought I would post regarding this topic. My father retired earlier this summer from Scandinavia Airlines Systems (SAS) he was based in Stockholm, Sweden his entire career. He, along with the majority of the pilots does not have a college degree. It is not a requirement at SAS, but still they fly the same equipment that the majors in the U.S operate. My dad flew the next generation 737's and the Airbus 319-21. I am not going to make an argument for or against a degree here but I do find it intereseting that a degree is such a big deal here and then in Europe employers really do not care about it. After all if they are all doing the same job.

Jimmy

 

[bobbysamd]

European pilot hiring

I do find it intereseting that a degree is such a big deal here and then in Europe employers really do not care about it. After all if they are all doing the same job.

On the other hand, European airlines operate differently. For example, Alitialia and Lufthansa. These airlines look for individuals who might have potential. They send these people to their own flight schools (or to a contract provider, such as FlightSafety) and train them their way at their expense. Some of these trainees may have attended to college and some may have not. Their training is intense and focused with no moments wasted. They go on the line with about 300-500 hours, fully prepared to do their jobs. It is similar to military flight training.

Compare it to the American system, where American airlines do not hire and train their pilots from zero time. You have to obtain your own initial training at your expense and build experience before airlines will consider you. The two systems are different.

 

[pilotyip]

Difference in Europe

The Europeans recognize that a pilot is a skilled worked, like a machinist, or auto mechanic, and in Europe skilled workers go through an apprenticeship program. That is the basis of pilot training in Europe. In Europe there is a different path for knowledge workers that leads to University Training. In the US the value of a four-year degree varies from highly marketable i.e. Mechanical Engineering degree from the U of Mich., to a degree with little or no market value, i.e. Women’s Studies from Bumblebee State. For a pilot to pursue a degree with little market value in pursuit of a skilled worker position is not necessary. According to Air Inc, there are 167 out of 173 airlines hiring that do not require a 4-year college degree.

 

[pilotyip]

For Vic

"Its just another requirement to limit the size of the hiring pool b/c there are too many pilots in the U.S. looking for jobs. Easiest way to make a cut is to require a 4yr degree".

Your assumption is misguided, in the US almost everyone trying to become a professional has a college degree. To cut the pool down by 5% by eliminating the non 4-yr degreed pilots would do little to make pilot jobs more available. There has always been a large pool of pilots looking for flying jobs since the end of WWII. What happens when hiring picks up, companies redefine their competitive minimums to expand the pool. Then flight time, degree, and other nice to have things go by the way side and allow the company to dip deeper into the pool. This is in the process of occurring right now, leading up to the hiring boom of June 2007.

 

[bobbysamd]

It's baaaaaack!

According to Air Inc, there are 167 out of 173 airlines hiring that do not require a 4-year college degree.

Aside from the Kit Darby pablum/sophistry aspect of it, those who have a degree will still stand a better chance of being hired at these places, Yip, and at every other place, than those who will not.

No matter in what field in which you have your degree, as long as it is from an accredited college it has marketable value. At the very least, it lets you apply for jobs in any field that either requires or prefers a college degree.

 

[pilotyip]

Bobby explain again

Why are some airlines hiring pilots without degrees in front of pilots with degrees, I am talking SWA, AirTran, Spirit, JB? No one has splained that one to me yet.

 

[bobbysamd]

Why are some airlines hiring pilots without degrees in front of pilots with degrees, I am talking SWA, AirTran, Spirit, JB? No one has splained that one to me yet.

How do you know that for sure? What about the other airlines? In any event, no one has said categorically that the degree is the silver hiring bullet, but it still qualifies you for any job and is still far and away ahead of high school only.

There are exceptions to every rule, but it's dangerous and extremely irresponsible to advocate "exception" over "rule."

Get the degree. Enough said.

 

[pilotyip]

95% will listen to Bobby

5% will make it without the 4-yr degree