Good Community College Pilot Programs?

[English]

I get it.

Ditto from me on Goose egg's comments.

 

[350DRIVER]

Jet Blue does not require a degree either

If only people understood the difference between "preferred" and "required".

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[Goose Egg]

If only people understood the difference between "preferred" and "required".

I'll take a stab at it; "required" means that you will not even get an interview unless you meet the minimum requirements (and possibly not even then.) That's why they are called requirements. "Preferred" means that, while you may get an interview, you will most likely not get a job offer unless unless you have the qualifications that the company prefers or nobody else applies. That's what companies mean by the term preferred.

Well, how'd I do?

-Goose

 

[350DRIVER]

I'll take a stab at it; "required" means that you will not even get an interview unless you meet the minimum requirements (and possibly not even then.) That's why they are called requirements. "Preferred" means that, while you may get an interview, you will most likely not get a job offer unless unless you have the qualifications that the company prefers or nobody else applies. That's what companies mean by the term preferred.

Well, how'd I do?

-Goose

Not too too bad... This is like arguing that a Mercedes 500SL (my pick) is much better than a comparable BMW series car. This argument can and will go on forever and you surely are just as entitled to your opinion as I am mine.

"Preferred" means that, while you may get an interview, you will most likely not get a job offer unless unless you have the qualifications that the company prefers or nobody else applies.

I am sure in an ideal world most companies would also like to see a few thousand hours of turbine pic time at the entry level. More experience is always better right?!?! . I think this will also soon be added to the list of "preferred" items for company X. (a tad of sarcasm injected).

I think you are getting a little caught up in this whole college degree argument. "Preferred" is what is desired, wanted, not what is required to get the job and you can bet that this can be (and is) waved based on the applicant's other qualifications, skills, flight time(s), credentials, flying experience, etc.

It is quite obvious that you take great pride in your degree as most of us do with the degree. I just don't feel that those without one will be left on the outside looking in. What is "preferred" isn't always what is "needed", this holds true in every industry not just this one.

Have a very nice Christmas and New Years,

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ps> yip, is on a hiring board and is largely responsible for who get's hired and who doesn't so you may want to keep that in mind.. He is one of many in similar positions who understands and respects "real world" experience and places the most value on variables that mean the most.

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

I second that motion....

Pilotyip,

Get out that bubble sextant, Air Almanac, and lets fly!!

Cheers Capt.

I am due for my annual polar crossing!!!

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

Community college, in-state vs. out-of state prices...

If you have residency in a state, that will make a difference in the tuition price. I attended Palomar College in San Diego North County (San Marcos). They have a good aviation department.

The San Juan College with the MESA flying connection might be about the quickest for a new pilot who is just getting started.

The trap is once you get the two-year degree and get flying, it is hard to finish up the degree while flying full time and the many changes life brings. If you are just starting college and are single, you may not care about the quality of life issues, but as you get older, pick up baggage, start making and spending money, it gets complicated.

It's all about choosing the path that is right for you.

 

[Goose Egg]

I think you are getting a little caught up in this whole college degree argument. "Preferred" is what is desired, wanted, not what is required to get the job and you can bet that this can be (and is) waved based on the applicant's other qualifications, skills, flight time(s), credentials, flying experience, etc.

You are probably right, and I'm gonna give it a rest here in a minute. There is one thing that I can't quite resolve though, and that is that a young, impressionable guy like me is getting some severely crossed signals from the more experienced members of the forum.

On one hand, you have some folks that say that one should forget about college and focus on flying (well, too late for me, but no regrets.) On the other hand you have people insisting that a BS in Aviation is inadequate in the "real" world, and that preparations should be made for a "plan B" career.

In other words, it seems like some people feel that flying jobs are so easy to come by that any type of post-secondary education (other than flying itself) is a complete waste of time, while others feel that a career in flying is so tenuous that some sort of alternate career plan is absolutely required.

Well, which one is it then? 350? Yip? Bobby? Buhler? Anyone?

-Goose

 

[English]

goose egg,

Everyone's opinions on this board are just that - opinions. The opinions are influenced by each individual's personal experiences with the subject. So, likely, you'll get several different responses just because you are asking a wide cross-section of pilots an answer that has more than one answer. A successful career to one pilot might mean making captain on a King Air for a charter operation, or being hired at a small regional airline like Piedmont. In that case, the argument might be against getting a degree because that particular pilot did not find the need to get a degree to make it where he is now. Maybe a poster hires for a cargo company and doesn't let whether the candidate has a degree or not influence his hiring decision. In that case, if working on-demand frieght is your idea of success, then there is no reason to get the degree. If your idea of success is getting in line with other equally-qualified pilots for a job where all the other applicants have a degree, then you'd better have the degree or you are no longer "competitive". So, define what success is to you, then make your decision from there.

For me, personally, education was important. I did my first degree not because they would help me get a job, but because at the high school I attended it was a natural progression to attain a certain level of education. My second one was purely for fun and to learn more about certain subjects. Yes, learning is fun for me.

If you want professional assistance with your question, I'd suggest calling a career counselor that specializes in pilot hiring. Maybe someone like Lori Clark www.flytheline.com.

 

[mayday1]

Well, I'll take a stab.

1) I've never met anyone who regretted getting their degree. Aside from your 'marketability', theoretically, you'll learn some stuff as well. I did, and it has served me well in my professional life as well as my personal.

2) Get the degree when you're young, and life is simpler. I know many people in their 30's and 40's trying to get their degree, while attending to life's other complexities - kids, homes, careers, etc. Getting your degree when you're older is alot harder, and don't bite on the tempting illusion that you can "just get it later." You'll regret that.

3) Whether it be the aviation industry or any other.. a degree makes you a more attractive candidate.. period. The degree not only represents book knowledge, but also that you're someone able to commit to something that is long term, challenging, and that requires hard work. To present this with all you're flying experience only improves your image.

4) A degree will open doors for you - in aviation or otherwise. It will not shut them. Regardless of your career, you'll typically always be competing with people who have their degree. Get it, learn something in the process, and you'll never regret it.

 

[350DRIVER]

You are probably right, and I'm gonna give it a rest here in a minute. There is one thing that I can't quite resolve though, and that is that a young, impressionable guy like me is getting some severely crossed signals from the more experienced members of the forum.

On one hand, you have some folks that say that one should forget about college and focus on flying (well, too late for me, but no regrets.) On the other hand you have people insisting that a BS in Aviation is inadequate in the "real" world, and that preparations should be made for a "plan B" career.

In other words, it seems like some people feel that flying jobs are so easy to come by that any type of post-secondary education (other than flying itself) is a complete waste of time, while others feel that a career in flying is so tenuous that some sort of alternate career plan is absolutely required.

Well, which one is it then? 350? Yip? Bobby? Buhler? Anyone?

-Goose

Goose,

I don't think it is a case of right versus wrong, it is merely one person's opinion versus another. You have the degree so why worry?. Regardless of this argument you will not have to concerned about this when it comes time for you to interview so the point is somewhat moot.

I wouldn't say that flying jobs are "so easy to come by" but I also wouldn't say that the four year degree is a "must" have to be able to obtain success/employment within this industry or others out there. Some folks don't have the time, financial means, etc, to be able to get the degree and they seem to end up doing alright when all is said and done.

Does it hurt to have the degree?. Absolutely not and if anything it is quite beneficial to have one should a person get ousted from a flying position. We all are one medical bust away from having to look for different employment opportunities. This is one of the main reasons why so many get the degree in a different field so they have a "plan B" or back up plan should something misfire that is beyond their control.

The main point I think yip, others, and myself are trying to make is that other variables are just as important as the degree such as experience, flight time(s), background, etc, etc.

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[bobbysamd]

College degree controversy

Earning a college degree is never a mistake or a waste of time. One can only benefit from education; aside from that, you are eligible to apply for any job that prefers or requires a college degree. I'm not talking strictly aviation. Just look at the classifieds; any ad that requires or prefers a college degree is included. While I would submit the value of a non-related degree is diminished somewhat without actual experience in the field, a four-year degree, in any subject, remains a valuable credential - as opposed to high school only.

My primary beef with Yip's position is his advice is misleading and pie-in-the-sky. It is especially misleading and irresponsible because it comes from someone who hires pilots. Teenagers considering professional aviation read this board - the same group who has understood from Day One they need and shall obtain a college education - even, if in their deepest recesses, they don't want one. Yip comes along and says that a degree is not needed to earn a $100K job. So, after reading that, what are they thinking? At the same time, he has never addressed repeated queries on how to get the jobs that lead to that coveted "TJ PIC" time with inadequate credentials. The point is, maybe they don't "wanna go to college," but, in life, neccessity trumps "don't wanna." Although they don't want to go to college, if they're smart, practical and pragmatic they eventually realize the need, must and shall.

Of course, other things besides college are considered during hiring. But, if the majority has college and companies emphasize college, it's a mistake to forge forward without college.

Finally, if I had it to do over again, I would have finished my ratings at ERAU or a similar aviation college and have earned a second B.S. in Aeronautical Science.

 

[Goose Egg]

You have the degree so why worry?. Regardless of this argument you will not have to concerned about this when it comes time for you to interview so the point is somewhat moot.

Yeah, I came to the same conclusion the other night when I was doing my little internet research project.

-Goose

 

[pilotyip]

Bobby and I agree

Bobby and I agree a high school graduate must have additional skill development in order to be successful. We just have different views on how to go about getting the additional skills. Bobby says that college and the degree is the only way that a rational thinking person would ever consider getting additional skills. 95% of pilots believe Bobby is right and are quick to stand up and support his views. That is fine. I say there is another way, I represent the irresponsible 5% who made it to a national or major passenger airline without a degree. Someone has to stand up and sing the praises of those who made it on their own without the magic piece of paper the 95% so dearly cherish. Again no one has answered why the non-degreed pilots were hired in front of the 95% who had four-year degrees. It was not luck, it was not timing, and it was not desperation on the part of the employer. It was they were considered the best candidate available for the position. Skilled interviews and broad mined HR specialists look at the whole man concept in hire the best candidate.

 

[pilotyip]

English come on!

If your idea of success is getting in line with other equally-qualified pilots for a job where all the other applicants have a degree

Are you saying only 4-yr. college degreed pilots are equally qualified for a position in the passenger airline business? And you must get this degree to work at this airline so you will not have to ride in the cockpit with a person who does not have a college degree. Again as I posted to Bobby, non-degreed pilots are getting hired all time at almost everyplace except the FedEx and UPS. How are airlines like SWA, JB, AirTran, and all the regionals making this mistake of making college degreed pilots ride in the cockpit with the uneducated? Why do these backward airlines hire such unqualified pilots to fly their airplanes? Sounds pretty elitist to me. Feel free to correct any of college educated writing here.

 

[Clyde]

Bobby and I agree a high school graduate must have additional skill development in order to be successful. We just have different views on how to go about getting the additional skills. Bobby says that college and the degree is the only way that a rational thinking person would ever consider getting additional skills. 95% of pilots believe Bobby is right and are quick to stand up and support his views. That is fine. I say there is another way, I represent the irresponsible 5% who made it to a national or major passenger airline without a degree. Someone has to stand up and sing the praises of those who made it on their own without the magic piece of paper the 95% so dearly cherish. Again no one has answered why the non-degreed pilots were hired in front of the 95% who had four-year degrees. It was not luck, it was not timing, and it was not desperation on the part of the employer. It was they were considered the best candidate available for the position. Skilled interviews and broad mined HR specialists look at the whole man concept in hire the best candidate.

Yip,
I know a few people who were hired at the majors without a degree. They got the interviews because of who they knew, and they got the job because they were able to prove they could fly an airplane, just like candidates with a degree. Is it possible to get on without a degree? Yes, possible, but not very probable, especially in the given job market.

One person in my new-hire class 4 years ago did not have a degree or any college. Out of 18 people, one did not have a college degree and 17 did. Another way to look at it is like this: roughly 1 out of every 18 people interviewed who did not have a degree were selected for the job based on my class. I should also note, that this person wasn't the typical 4000 hour new-hire either. This person's experience included over 10,000 hours of flying, and many years to gain it. This was also just prior to 9/11 and the subsequent recession.

I'm not saying it can't be done, but the odds were not in someone's favor before 9/11, and it has only gotten worse since.

 

[pilotyip]

95% of applicants have a 4-yr degree

Again if 95% of those applying have degrees and 17 out of 206 (1 out of 18) get hired and the 206 number represents 95% of the total interview population. Then 217 would represent the entire interview population including those without a four-year degree. This would mean that 1 out of 11 (217-206) of the non-degreed pilots were hired in your class, that is a better ratio than 1 out of 18.

 

[bobbysamd]

Bobby says that college and the degree is the only way that a rational thinking person would ever consider getting additional skills.

I did not put it in those absolute terms. I am saying that college is one way to hone thinking and analytical skills, which every pilot needs. I am saying, emphatically, that the degree is a vital, necessary credential for a pilot's repertoire. And, yes, I am saying that a degree levels the playing field and improves the odds of success.

I also submit that but for "that magic piece of paper" pilots will hit a glass ceiling.

Skilled interviews and broad mined HR specialists look at the whole man concept in hire the best candidate.

Sadly, and speaking from personal experience, there are few broad-minded HR specialists anymore. Most of them are narrow-minded coneheads, hell-bent on fitting square pegs to square holes. Why? Because it's easier. Therefore, if there is something you want, such as the job you want, give them what they want. Case in point:

Out of 18 people, one did not have a college degree and 17 did. Another way to look at it is like this: roughly 1 out of every 18 people interviewed who did not have a degree were selected for the job based on my class. I should also note, that this person wasn't the typical 4000 hour new-hire either. This person's experience included over 10,000 hours of flying, and many years to gain it. This was also just prior to 9/11 and the subsequent recession.

I'm not saying it can't be done, but the odds were not in someone's favor before 9/11, and it has only gotten worse since.

(emphasis added)

Bingo.

 

[pilotyip]

We also agree

Sadly, and speaking from personal experience, there are few broad-minded HR specialists anymore. Most of them are narrow-minded coneheads, hell-bent on fitting square pegs to square holes. Why? Because it's easier.

Well said, fortunately SWA and JB have a better screening method.

 

[bobbysamd]

Well said, fortunately SWA and JB have a better screening method.

And, your company, apparently. But these are only three out of how many?

Back in "the day," if an applicant came along that might be slightly deficient or different but otherwise exhibited potential, HR would try to qualify that person for the job. That meant that it had to actually think, and, heaven forbid, actually give that person a chance. These days, you have to fit the profile. No exceptions. The argument can be made that these companies miss out on great people, but they don't care one way or another about hiring great people and because it's easy to find candidates who fit the profile exactly.

All that aside, companies establish requirements. That, together with the applicant pool's overall qualfications, determines the actual hiring profile. Therefore, if, as Yip has stated, ninety-five percent of the application pool has the degree, and, with the understanding that this is the group being hired, aren't the odds against you if you don't have the degree? Once again, there are always exceptions.

We could go in circles on this all day . . . . . . <sigh>

 

[Clyde]

Again if 95% of those applying have degrees and 17 out of 206 (1 out of 18) get hired and the 206 number represents 95% of the total interview population. Then 217 would represent the entire interview population including those without a four-year degree. This would mean that 1 out of 11 (217-206) of the non-degreed pilots were hired in your class, that is a better ratio than 1 out of 18.

I think we hired about 200 in 2001, and then stopped in September of 2001. We just recently started hiring again.

Now, keep in mind, that not every class had at least one person without a college degree in it, so the ratio might even be worse. I don't have the demographics, but I know a lot were former military and several actually had Master's degrees as well. I know this because I crash padded with several of them and I got to know several of the others as well.

I see where you were going with your numbers up there, but they don't work regarding my particular class. What would be more interesting, is to see how many interviewed that had no college and how many actually go hired.