Good Community College Pilot Programs?

[saviboy]

Hi, check out Broward community college.Delta Connection academy is the training provider. The flight costs are a little cheaper than at the main base in Orlando. there is a lot to say about DCA, though. So make sure you do a search.
bye

 

[bobbysamd]

How about this for a wild idea?

I wrote this at the end of a post above and am repeating it so it will stand alone.

The debate never stops on aviation degree v. non-aviation degrees. So, how about this idea?

Go to a two-year school, earn an A.S. in Aviation and your ratings. Then, transfer to a four-year school and earn a Bachelor's in something else. That way, all bases will be covered and everyone will be happy.

No guarantees, of course, on how many aviation credits will transfer. Flight instructing part-time can earn a few bucks, hours and can generate contacts.

I still like a four-year aviation degree and would still submit that a non-aviation degree without actual experience in the field diminishes its value as a fallback plan. However, just consider what I am suggesting.

 

[Goose Egg]

Go to a two-year school, earn an A.S. in Aviation and your ratings. Then, transfer to a four-year school and earn a Bachelor's in something else. That way, all bases will be covered and everyone will be happy.

Well, everyone except Yip anyway.

-Goose

 

[pilotyip]

I won't be unhappy

I really do not care if a pilot does a four-year degree or not, it is an individual choice. It is not for everyone and it has nothing to do with flying an airplane. My point is if you like to fly airplanes, fly airplanes. You will be successful. Without a college degree $100K in 10-12 years out of high school is doable. I see it happen too often. The individual defines success and not what the majority thinks is politically correct definition of success. Spend 2 years at a CC, get your certs and start flying. This is a viable career option, but it still falls in the non- 4-yr degree program.

 

[350DRIVER]

I have and will always suggest the San Juan College /Mesa Airlines Pilot Development Program (MAPD) to those who ask me for career advice and input. No other community college or program is tailored to take a zero hour pilot and place them in the right seat of a CRJ, ERJ, or Dash8 in 19 short months and at relatively low time (270-300 hours). The college/program is pretty hard to beat in my opinion, you are trained the airline way from day 1. Those who are so overly concerned about continuing on afterwards can finish up the 4 year degree through a correspondence course that can be done online while you are currently flying.

Mesa is not a career airline but it is a good way to get your foot in the door to allow you the opportunity to move on to bigger and better things.

One must ask a few questions when looking at a college and program that may or may not be tied in with an airline.>

1) Placement rates?

2) Success rates among current and former students?.

3) Where are they now?.

4) Do the positives outweigh the negatives?.

5) Do any other similar programs compare to this one?.

good luck,

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[bobbysamd]

I really do not care if a pilot does a four-year degree or not, it is an individual choice. It is not for everyone and it has nothing to do with flying an airplane.

Not true. Here again, Yip, anything that can hone thought processes, such as studying, learning, thinking and analyzing, has everything to do with being a better pilot. Good study skills have everything to do with getting through company ground school. Getting through college fosters development of good study skills.

My point is if you like to fly airplanes, fly airplanes. You will be successful. Without a college degree $100K in 10-12 years out of high school is doable. I see it happen too often.

The "too often" is baloney. Your claim of $100K success with no need for college sounds like flight school and afternoon TV career school hype. It is misleading, and not realistic without credentials to support it.

Define "often." Your only example has been the 20-year-old you hired who lucked into a Metro job beforehand. Others get these jobs, but not at 20-years-old and only after building sizeable credentials.

Spend 2 years at a CC, get your certs and start flying. This is a viable career option, but it still falls in the non- 4-yr degree program.

It may not fall into the four-year-degree program, but it is still not high school only, and the four-year-degree still will be needed, eventually.

 

[Superpilot92]

Try Texas State Technical College! I went there and got all my ratings there in 2 years and recieved a Associates degree. upon recieving my cfi i was hired and began working there as a CFI. Private through CFI in 2 years then recieved my CFII and MEI Part 61 after i started working. YOu get a discount on aircraft 20% and free sim and one one free hour of Twin time a month which always works out to 2 free hours when you go up with another CFI.

www.theflightcollege.com

 

[pilotyip]

Bobby Oh! yea of little faith

The "too often" is baloney. Your claim of $100K success with no need for college sounds like flight school and afternoon TV career school hype. It is misleading, and not realistic without credentials to support it.

According to Webster’s "Often" means many, what defines many? Is three at a small company many?
I will PM you with the details.

 

[labbats]

Try Iowa Central Community College in Webster City, Iowa. Or Northern Iowa Area Community College in NW Iowa and Indian Hills in SE Iowa.

Lots of students go to University of Nebraska at Omaha for a 4 year aviation degree too. If you are related to anyone in the military, you can fly and get credits through the Aero Club at Offutt Air Force Base just south of Omaha. It's incredibly cheap there. $155/hr for a BE-55 Baron wet.

 

[bobbysamd]

Arguing exception

According to Webster’s "Often" means many, what defines many? Is three at a small company many?

Define "small." But, three in the broader scope of thousands of pilots, employed and unemployed, qualified and unqualified, college educated or not, is not many at all. These people are the exception, not the rule.

There are always exceptions. Rugged individualists who defy the rules. However, when considering the intense competition for pilot jobs, the odds are better if one is the rule instead of the exception. Therefore, smart, practical, pragmatic and realistic people go with the percentages.

 

[Goose Egg]

The individual defines success and not what the majority thinks is politically correct definition of success.

My definition of success has nothing to do with political correctness, and everything to do with actually understanding why I do what I do in flying as well as life. Merely going through the monkey motions and performing skills at the braying moron rote level is failure defined, even if it comes with a $100k paycheck.

Was college neccessary for this to occur? You bet your sweet bippy.

-Goose

 

[pilotyip]

Tell me more goose

Are you telling me you are smarter, a better pilot, a person more capable of making critical decisions than my friend and co-worker who is a DC-9 Captain with 4 years of TJ PIC, who possess and A&P certificate but does not have a college degree? Alternatively, you are better that an Army HS to Flight school graduate with service in Gulf I, who not possess a college degree? It that what you are saying? College alone does not define any of the characteristics you attach to a four year degree.

 

[Clyde]

To continue the discussion of the merits of the college degree. It has been posted that I am anti-college degree. Nothing cold is further from the truth. The country needs all the college educated citizens it can have, its raises the level of knowledge to keep this as the greatest country in the world. Real degrees in business, engineering, the sciences, math, and medicine provide a graduate with marketable skills. If you are going to go to college, get a real degree from a real university. Do not spend four years getting a degree in Women’s Studies. However this is not an engineering forum, this is an aviation forum. The college degree has nothing to do with flying an airplane. Many have posted they agree it has nothing to do with the mastering on an airplane. I have admitted that the possession of a degree may open doors at a few select places of employment in the airline industry. If a potential pilot feels they will only be pleased in life if they get an interview with UPS, then that prospective pilot should go to college, however disappointment may follow. Air Inc advertises that 166 airlines and assorted aviation companies are recruiting right now, I only see five that make the degree a showstopper. My assertion that runs contrary to the "College is a must” crowd, is that to be competitive for the other 161 places the degree is not necessary. If a prospective pilots just loves flying airplanes, and would be happy making $70-$100K per year with no debt from college loans, a college degree is not necessary. Many prospective pilots may be steered into attending college when they are not college material, not because of a lack basic intelligence, but because it is not important to them. These pilots want to get on with their lives flying airplanes. I have seen too many non-degreed pilots reach a good career position with out a degree. But then my focus is on job satisfaction and not upon pay, respect, and prestige. It is about the joy of flying an airplane. Others out there may feel the same motivation I do.

"If a prospective pilots just loves flying airplanes, and would be happy making $70-$100K per year with no debt from college loans, a college degree is not necessary."

Well, let's add to this a little bit.
First, the student would more than likely not have any student loan debt from college, but highly unlikely that this person would not owe any money for acquiring certificates and ratings. Unless they have around $15K sitting around with nothing else to spend it on, they are going to owe money when they finish.

Second, these prospective pilots are not going to walk into $70-$100K flying jobs. More likely, they are going to spend at least a few years working for minimum wage wages while they gain experience. Looks like the credit card debt may start creeping up on them at 15%-20% interest rates.

Third, while the prospects of making $70K-$100K are there, one must look at a few other things. Compared to making $250/week as a CFI, even $40K looks good. But, are we talking about $70-$100K in today's dollars when we project 10 years into the future? Chances are that a lot of these companies that pay $70-$100K today, will still pay $70-$100K annually 10-15 years down the road. That may still be good money, or it may not be as much as it is today.

Fourth, what kinds of companies will be paying these salaries and what are the working conditions like. I'm sure some corporate outfits will pay this much, but how about stability. Can you count on retiring from them? Can you count on starting over a few times before you eventually retire? How about quality of life? Is a job that pays $70-$100K going to require you to be on call 24/7 and gone away from home 2/3 of the year?

Now, I see YIP's point about the college degree, and this is not any type of slam to his argument. In fact, I know a couple of people here that do not have a college degree. However, here is my point:

First, like YIP says, get into flying because you enjoy flying airplanes, that way you won't be dissappointed.

Second, regarding a degree, I recommend getting one, but not one in aviation. Get a degree, and more specifically, one which will equip you with a very marketable trade and allow you to work while you are flying or between flying jobs. This could help put a few extra condiments on the dinner table during those slow months as a CFI when nobody else seems to be hiring as well as when you are between flying jobs.

Finally, don't let debt from student loans scare you. I do advise paying cash for as much school as you can, but if you HAVE to borrow, go ahead. Just make sure that you are able to pay it off rather quickly when you graduate. I had a couple of school loans when I graduated, but they have since been paid off. I lucked out, my degree is in aviation, but I got on with a very good carrier 4 years out of college too. Looking back, it was a gamble.

When YIP referenced school debt, it made me think of some of the aviation-universities where one can easily owe over $100K upon graduation. I think those schools are a waste of money, because you don't need an aviation-specific degree to even fly for the carriers which require a degree. You can major in something more marketable for a lot less.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Cochise College in AZ. Douglas campus has its own airport on campus, They also have a school in Tucson now. 2 year degree offered, most do their 4 year while instructing. (ER online etc..)

Senior instructors and CP's are career instructors so you tend to get a more quality and stable instruction experience from what I saw. The CP has been there since 81 or something like that and the Assistant CP for about 15 years or so. they also have an A&P program so unless things have changed in the last decade or so the aircraft are always in near perfect condition. Back then if you saw a spot of oil down in the cowling they wanted to know about it so they could give it a once over for a possible oil leak. Aircraft types were Warriors, 182 RG's, C-170 for tailwheel and B55 Baron for multi. I don't know if they have added any different types due to the Tucson addition or not.

I went to finish up my ratings there Comm thru CFII, and after 3 airlines and a flurry of pt 135 and corporate jobs I have yet to come across anything that I felt I should have learned that I didn't. You will not get any turbine flight experience, but you will get high altitude aerodynamics, and swept wing aerodynamics. Which is more than I can say for the majority of the pilots that I have flown with that came from the so called "Turbine programs" They are small enough that the competition between you and your classmates keeps you sharp. You do not want to be the only bonehead in your class that falls behind or is weak on a subject.

They are not a big school but I know of Cochise College folks at nearly every Major and Regional in the country. If you like the big city then Douglas is not for you, If you want to learn as much as possible in a couple of years and fly your butt off then have a look. They have some pretty good connections with AWA also. Lots of alumni on the senority list over there.

Keep in mind that my info is 10+ years old, but I still drop in there from time to time when I am out west to B.S. with the CP's and it appears that they still have the same quality as before.

 

[Goose Egg]

Are you telling me you are smarter, a better pilot, a personal more capable of making critical decisions than my friend and co-worker who is a DC-9 Captain with 4 jets of TJ PIC, who possess and A&P certificate but does not have a college degree? Alternatively, you are better that an Army HS to Flight school graduate with service in Gulf I, who not possess a college degree? It that what you are saying?

No, and I do hope that you realize the difference. I am saying that I am smarter, better, and more capable of making critical decisions than I would have been if I had not been to college. Nice try though.

-Goose

 

[bobbysamd]

<Sigh>. again

No, and I do hope that you realize the difference. I am saying that I am smarter, better, and more capable of making critical decisions than I would have been if I had not been to college. Nice try though.

Moved AND seconded.

 

[EngineOut]

I mentor several student pilots in my hometown and one asked me about reputable community college aviation programs? Obviously for four year aviation colleges Embry Riddle, UND, and Purdue are top notch as well as several more.

The real advantage I see to going to a community college flight program is that you usually graduate after two years with all of your ratings (CFI tickets too!) rather than four years. You could begin instructing right at 20-21 years old in that case. Another advantage if you could transfer those credits to a 4 year college and major in something other than aeronautical science in the end to have a backup.

My question therefore is: Does anyone know of the top rated community college aviation programs in the US?

I don't know of its "rating," but I went to Mountain View College in Dallas, TX. Finished the AAS Aviation Technology Aircraft Dispatch, AAS Aviation Technology Professional Pilot, and AS Business Administration in 2 1/2 years. Transfered the Biz stuff to UT Arlington and will be graduating this May with a BBA in Management.

MVC is a good program. They contract all the flight training to Howell's Aircraft in Grand Prairie (141/61). The college subsidizes the hourly rate depending on the flight course in which you are enrolled. This amounts to a $6-8/hr discount for a flight course that requires 48 hours of flight (2 credit hours, $90). They have 3 Frascas on campus, too. Students aren't charged for the use, either (at least when I went there). Finished the certificates (thru CFII) a year after I finished the coursework while attending UTA.

 

[msuspartans24]

Northwestern Michigan College in Traverse City, Michigan has a great 2 year program. You can also stay and get your 4 year from Ferris State at the university center. It's very affordable, and T.C. is a great city to live in.

 

[Ravengirl]

MTSAC, Mount San Antonio College, in Walnut, California. SoCal.

www.mtsac.edu

Hell yeah. I graduated a year ago from good old Mt. SAC

Stephanie

 

[350DRIVER]

No, and I do hope that you realize the difference. I am saying that I am smarter, better, and more capable of making critical decisions than I would have been if I had not been to college. Nice try though.

-Goose

Pretty interesting statement to say the least..... I have never flown with any one pilot who would ever state they are a "better" and a safer pilot due to that piece of paper called a degree. To even think a long those lines would be on the verge of insanity. Those who have a degree are more capable of "making critical decisions" versus those who do not have the degree?!?!. I have heard some funny things on this board but that has got to be up near the top. That college degree does not make one any safer, better, or a more well rounded pilot, in reality it simply allows you to fill in the box on the application, nothing more and nothing less.

I have flown with many pilots who haven't attended a single college class and they were just as sharp as those with the degree. I can't even believe I am taking the time to respond to this, it is insane.

Next thing I will hear is that those without the degree are not required to pass the same competency checks as those who have one.

Degree or no degree you are still required to show a certain level of competence and ability regardless of whether or not you have that piece of paper.

Many have been hired without the degree and many more will be, the trend won't be coming to an end anytime soon.

If you are able and have the means to be able to obtain the degree then wonderful and more power to you but if you are unable then don't think for one second that you will not get hired within this industry, that would be nonsense to buy into that.

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[qmaster3]

Bob and Goose

A good friend of mine is a one of those dreaded non-degreed retired US Air types. I can assure you he educated many degreed aviators on the line. Yes, he can make decisions in the bird when those critical moments that we all hate pop up.

Cheers,

 

[Goose Egg]

That college degree does not make one any safer, better, or a more well rounded pilot, in reality it simply allows you to fill in the box on the application, nothing more and nothing less.

If a degree is just a "check the box" item for you, then you are simply missing the point, although I back bobby's opinion that a pilot candidate with a degree has a better shot at getting a job than one without, box-checking notwithstanding.

I have flown with many pilots who haven't attended a single college class and they were just as sharp as those with the degree. I can't even believe I am taking the time to respond to this, it is insane.

The real question is how "sharp" would the degreed pilots be if they had not been to college, and how "sharp" could the non-degreed pilots be if they had attended. I suppose that the answer to this lies in one thing that pilotyip stated a little while back--it is up to the individual; I have seen many a college student squander their opportunities for learning, merely doing the bare minimum to get through their classes. At the same time, I have seen many non-college student types show superior intelligence and resourcefulness (my claim was never that those two attributes were exclusive to college attendees.)

My point: College provides almost limitless opportunities for learning, growth, maturity, and refining of judgement if those opportunities are taken full advantage of. And gaining those skills and attributes is something that I feel is in everyone's long-term best interest, to say nothing of increased employability and competitiveness in the job market. This applies no matter what career field is chosen.

Degree or no degree you are still required to show a certain level of competence and ability regardless of whether or not you have that piece of paper.

I absolutely agree.

Many have been hired without the degree and many more will be, the trend won't be coming to an end anytime soon...but if you are unable then don't think for one second that you will not get hired within this industry, that would be nonsense to buy into that.

Yes, but hired where? If one wants the best possible job, then they must posess the best possible credentials. There is a not-so-subtle difference between absolute hiring minimums and competetive minimums.

-Goose

 

[bobbysamd]

Decision-making training

A good friend of mine is a one of those dreaded non-degreed retired US Air types. I can assure you he educated many degreed aviators on the line. Yes, he can make decisions in the bird when those critical moments that we all hate pop up.

No doubt about it. But, I still maintain that anything one can do to improve one's analytical and critical thinking skills can do nothing but improve one's piloting skills. I certainly learned a lot about critical thinking in college, which, I feel has served me during my life and especially while flying. I still remember the talk my instructor gave me about how learning to fly is a course in decision-making, so, I like to feel that those skills were somewhat developed before I started to fly.

Yip tried to slip one in above about non-degreed pilots' decision-making skills. No one has said that college is the only source of decision-making training. But it is an excellent source.

 

[pilotyip]

Slip one in?

Me? Never tried to slip one in, just posing a question. Which has been confirmed by others There are many ways to acquire skills and knowledge, and college is only one of them? I think about my going to college at Michigan State University in the early 60's, there are only two courses which I believe helped me in my flying career, two years of math, through Calc II and non Euclidean geo and one year of physics. Of course, most pilots going to college do not take these courses in their aviation management degrees, and it shows. I have interviewed dozens of these 4-yr degree guys who have math mastery of a High School student. Therefore, what are they learning. It is obvious my college degree does not help me write. The one course I found that was absolutely valuable was Solid Geometry, that course really made Cel Nav stand out and allowed to finish from Nav School in flying colors. College is not the only way to achieve success; I have seen the non-degreed guys hired in front of the 4-yr degree guys. It is all about the “Whole Man” concept. One checked box does not guarantee making it.

 

[qmaster3]

Pilotyip,

Get out that bubble sextant, Air Almanac, and lets fly!!

Cheers Capt.

 

[350DRIVER]

If a degree is just a "check the box" item for you, then you are simply missing the point, although I back bobby's opinion that a pilot candidate with a degree has a better shot at getting a job than one without, box-checking notwithstanding.

Goose, I don't think I am missing the point here at all... I am merely stating that a non-degreed pilot still has opportunity from within this industry to get hired, it happens every day. As I have stated on numerous occasions, I have nothing against the degree and I am all for people who have the financial means, time, etc, to continue on and get the degree, more power to them. I just don't buy into when someone attempts to tell me that a pilot without a degree is less of a skilled pilot and lacks in making "critical decisions" as one poster put it. The degree has nothing to do with your ability to safely and competently operate a piece of equipment.

The real question is how "sharp" would the degreed pilots be if they had not been to college, and how "sharp" could the non-degreed pilots be if they had attended. I suppose that the answer to this lies in one thing that pilotyip stated a little while back--it is up to the individual; I have seen many a college student squander their opportunities for learning, merely doing the bare minimum to get through their classes. At the same time, I have seen many non-college student types show superior intelligence and resourcefulness (my claim was never that those two attributes were exclusive to college attendees.)

I think this is more up to the pilot's background, experience, and flying job history more so than whether they have the degree or not. You could have obtained a PHD, still isn't going to make you a better or safer pilot without real world experience. A better well versed and marketable pilot on paper?. I could probably agree with that but I would take the 5000 hour non-degreed pilot with 1500 turbine pic any day of the week over the PHD with minimal flight experience.

My point: College provides almost limitless opportunities for learning, growth, maturity, and refining of judgement if those opportunities are taken full advantage of. And gaining those skills and attributes is something that I feel is in everyone's long-term best interest, to say nothing of increased employability and competitiveness in the job market. This applies no matter what career field is chosen.

I could not disagree with the above, very well put. The degree does allow one to be more "marketable" on paper, I have always said this.

Yes, but hired where? If one wants the best possible job, then they must posess the best possible credentials. There is a not-so-subtle difference between absolute hiring minimums and competetive minimums.

Where?. It happens at many places. Quite a few regionals, some majors, many 91/135 flight departments.

Here are just a few that have hired pilots with no degrees that come to mind since you have asked.
Southwest
AirTran
US Airways
Shuttle America
Piedmont
Trans States (STL)
ASA
SkyWest
Air Net
ExpressJet
USA Jet
Ultimate Jet Charters-
Flight Options
NJ
AvBase (CLE)
Castle Aviation (CAK)
LJ Aviation (LBE)
Cape Air
Mesa Airlines
Air Whisky

The list can go on and on and on.... If you have the degree then wonderful but don't think that you won't be able to obtain a job if you do not have one. The argument can and I am sure will go on forever. Just as important as the degree is the applicant's total time, flight experience, job and work history, equipment flown, background, turbine pic time, and a clean flying track record.

Yip does make a few good points, I don't agree with them due to numerous reasons. Keep in mind that he also holds two degrees.!

Take things with a grain of salt that you read on this board.

good luck to those all,


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[Goose Egg]

I just don't buy into when someone attempts to tell me that a pilot without a degree is less of a skilled pilot and lacks in making "critical decisions" as one poster put it. The degree has nothing to do with your ability to safely and competently operate a piece of equipment.

No one "attempted" to tell you that. My claim is that education is relative, and that everyone is at a different phase, and that I am a much better pilot than I would have been because of my college education. I fail to see how an expanded knowledge base and skill set would hinder a person, regardless of where their current flying abilities stand. Everyone can improve.

You could have obtained a PHD, still isn't going to make you a better or safer pilot without real world experience. A better well versed and marketable pilot on paper?. I could probably agree with that but I would take the 5000 hour non-degreed pilot with 1500 turbine pic any day of the week over the PHD with minimal flight experience.

Ahem, this may shoot holes all over my argument, but I can think of a dozen PhDs that I wouldn't trust within 50 yds. of an airplane. And I say that as a CFI and a college graduate.

Anyway, I think about all the idiotic things that I would have done and all the learning that I would have missed had I not gotten that degree, and I shudder. I can accept that not everyone wants to go to college. I can accept that not everyone needs to college to be employable. I can accept that there are non-degreed pilots that are every bit as sharp (if not more) as degreed pilots. But with all of you guys constantly moaning and groaning about how hard it is to make a living in this business and how competetive it is, I would seek every advantage to make myself attractive to an employer. And some folks here actively promote to the younger members of the forum that they should not participate in an activity, i.e. a college education, that increases their likelihood of getting their desired job, and I think it is reckless and irresponsible. Face it, 4 years is going to go by regardless, and no one is going to get a TJPIC job right out of high school... or college for that matter.

Forget not having a "plan B" with an aviation degree. Try falling back on a high school education!

Take things with a grain of salt that you read on this board.

This board, and life in general.

-Goose

 

[pilotyip]

350 you left one out

Jet Blue does not require a degree either

 

[Goose Egg]

I got a little curious, and I decided to do a cursory web search about the hiring requirements for the companies on 350's list. I was doubly surprised.

First of all, much to my argument's chagrin (I apologize for the anthropomorphism) many good jobs on the list did not say that a degree was preferred. Most of those were charter and fractional outfits.

Several of the larger regionals (the second surprise) as well as JetBlue and Southwest (no surprise there) stated that a 4-year degree was preferred. And one, Trans States I think it was, stated that a 2-year degree was preferred. Air Tran was the lone big jet flyer that did not say that it preferred any sort of degree (a little heads up, if you don't want to do the college thing.)

However, for my money, I'm glad I got the degree--if for no other reason I have something more than a high school diploma to fall back on. And I still must insist that the analytical skills that I gained in college make me a better pilot than I would have been otherwise.

-Goose

 

[bobbysamd]

Here, here

[W]ith all of you guys constantly moaning and groaning about how hard it is to make a living in this business and how competetive it is, I would seek every advantage to make myself attractive to an employer. And some folks here actively promote to the younger members of the forum that they should not participate in an activity, i.e. a college education, that increases their likelihood of getting their desired job, and I think it is reckless and irresponsible. Face it, 4 years is going to go by regardless, and no one is going to get a TJPIC job right out of high school... or college for that matter.

Forget not having a "plan B" with an aviation degree. Try falling back on a high school education . . . .

(emphasis added)

Finally, someone else who "gets it."