Good Community College Pilot Programs?

[qmaster3]

Bob and Goose

A good friend of mine is a one of those dreaded non-degreed retired US Air types. I can assure you he educated many degreed aviators on the line. Yes, he can make decisions in the bird when those critical moments that we all hate pop up.

Cheers,

 

[Goose Egg]

That college degree does not make one any safer, better, or a more well rounded pilot, in reality it simply allows you to fill in the box on the application, nothing more and nothing less.

If a degree is just a "check the box" item for you, then you are simply missing the point, although I back bobby's opinion that a pilot candidate with a degree has a better shot at getting a job than one without, box-checking notwithstanding.

I have flown with many pilots who haven't attended a single college class and they were just as sharp as those with the degree. I can't even believe I am taking the time to respond to this, it is insane.

The real question is how "sharp" would the degreed pilots be if they had not been to college, and how "sharp" could the non-degreed pilots be if they had attended. I suppose that the answer to this lies in one thing that pilotyip stated a little while back--it is up to the individual; I have seen many a college student squander their opportunities for learning, merely doing the bare minimum to get through their classes. At the same time, I have seen many non-college student types show superior intelligence and resourcefulness (my claim was never that those two attributes were exclusive to college attendees.)

My point: College provides almost limitless opportunities for learning, growth, maturity, and refining of judgement if those opportunities are taken full advantage of. And gaining those skills and attributes is something that I feel is in everyone's long-term best interest, to say nothing of increased employability and competitiveness in the job market. This applies no matter what career field is chosen.

Degree or no degree you are still required to show a certain level of competence and ability regardless of whether or not you have that piece of paper.

I absolutely agree.

Many have been hired without the degree and many more will be, the trend won't be coming to an end anytime soon...but if you are unable then don't think for one second that you will not get hired within this industry, that would be nonsense to buy into that.

Yes, but hired where? If one wants the best possible job, then they must posess the best possible credentials. There is a not-so-subtle difference between absolute hiring minimums and competetive minimums.

-Goose

 

[bobbysamd]

Decision-making training

A good friend of mine is a one of those dreaded non-degreed retired US Air types. I can assure you he educated many degreed aviators on the line. Yes, he can make decisions in the bird when those critical moments that we all hate pop up.

No doubt about it. But, I still maintain that anything one can do to improve one's analytical and critical thinking skills can do nothing but improve one's piloting skills. I certainly learned a lot about critical thinking in college, which, I feel has served me during my life and especially while flying. I still remember the talk my instructor gave me about how learning to fly is a course in decision-making, so, I like to feel that those skills were somewhat developed before I started to fly.

Yip tried to slip one in above about non-degreed pilots' decision-making skills. No one has said that college is the only source of decision-making training. But it is an excellent source.

 

[pilotyip]

Slip one in?

Me? Never tried to slip one in, just posing a question. Which has been confirmed by others There are many ways to acquire skills and knowledge, and college is only one of them? I think about my going to college at Michigan State University in the early 60's, there are only two courses which I believe helped me in my flying career, two years of math, through Calc II and non Euclidean geo and one year of physics. Of course, most pilots going to college do not take these courses in their aviation management degrees, and it shows. I have interviewed dozens of these 4-yr degree guys who have math mastery of a High School student. Therefore, what are they learning. It is obvious my college degree does not help me write. The one course I found that was absolutely valuable was Solid Geometry, that course really made Cel Nav stand out and allowed to finish from Nav School in flying colors. College is not the only way to achieve success; I have seen the non-degreed guys hired in front of the 4-yr degree guys. It is all about the “Whole Man” concept. One checked box does not guarantee making it.

 

[qmaster3]

Pilotyip,

Get out that bubble sextant, Air Almanac, and lets fly!!

Cheers Capt.

 

[350DRIVER]

If a degree is just a "check the box" item for you, then you are simply missing the point, although I back bobby's opinion that a pilot candidate with a degree has a better shot at getting a job than one without, box-checking notwithstanding.

Goose, I don't think I am missing the point here at all... I am merely stating that a non-degreed pilot still has opportunity from within this industry to get hired, it happens every day. As I have stated on numerous occasions, I have nothing against the degree and I am all for people who have the financial means, time, etc, to continue on and get the degree, more power to them. I just don't buy into when someone attempts to tell me that a pilot without a degree is less of a skilled pilot and lacks in making "critical decisions" as one poster put it. The degree has nothing to do with your ability to safely and competently operate a piece of equipment.

The real question is how "sharp" would the degreed pilots be if they had not been to college, and how "sharp" could the non-degreed pilots be if they had attended. I suppose that the answer to this lies in one thing that pilotyip stated a little while back--it is up to the individual; I have seen many a college student squander their opportunities for learning, merely doing the bare minimum to get through their classes. At the same time, I have seen many non-college student types show superior intelligence and resourcefulness (my claim was never that those two attributes were exclusive to college attendees.)

I think this is more up to the pilot's background, experience, and flying job history more so than whether they have the degree or not. You could have obtained a PHD, still isn't going to make you a better or safer pilot without real world experience. A better well versed and marketable pilot on paper?. I could probably agree with that but I would take the 5000 hour non-degreed pilot with 1500 turbine pic any day of the week over the PHD with minimal flight experience.

My point: College provides almost limitless opportunities for learning, growth, maturity, and refining of judgement if those opportunities are taken full advantage of. And gaining those skills and attributes is something that I feel is in everyone's long-term best interest, to say nothing of increased employability and competitiveness in the job market. This applies no matter what career field is chosen.

I could not disagree with the above, very well put. The degree does allow one to be more "marketable" on paper, I have always said this.

Yes, but hired where? If one wants the best possible job, then they must posess the best possible credentials. There is a not-so-subtle difference between absolute hiring minimums and competetive minimums.

Where?. It happens at many places. Quite a few regionals, some majors, many 91/135 flight departments.

Here are just a few that have hired pilots with no degrees that come to mind since you have asked.
Southwest
AirTran
US Airways
Shuttle America
Piedmont
Trans States (STL)
ASA
SkyWest
Air Net
ExpressJet
USA Jet
Ultimate Jet Charters-
Flight Options
NJ
AvBase (CLE)
Castle Aviation (CAK)
LJ Aviation (LBE)
Cape Air
Mesa Airlines
Air Whisky

The list can go on and on and on.... If you have the degree then wonderful but don't think that you won't be able to obtain a job if you do not have one. The argument can and I am sure will go on forever. Just as important as the degree is the applicant's total time, flight experience, job and work history, equipment flown, background, turbine pic time, and a clean flying track record.

Yip does make a few good points, I don't agree with them due to numerous reasons. Keep in mind that he also holds two degrees.!

Take things with a grain of salt that you read on this board.

good luck to those all,


3 5 0

 

[Goose Egg]

I just don't buy into when someone attempts to tell me that a pilot without a degree is less of a skilled pilot and lacks in making "critical decisions" as one poster put it. The degree has nothing to do with your ability to safely and competently operate a piece of equipment.

No one "attempted" to tell you that. My claim is that education is relative, and that everyone is at a different phase, and that I am a much better pilot than I would have been because of my college education. I fail to see how an expanded knowledge base and skill set would hinder a person, regardless of where their current flying abilities stand. Everyone can improve.

You could have obtained a PHD, still isn't going to make you a better or safer pilot without real world experience. A better well versed and marketable pilot on paper?. I could probably agree with that but I would take the 5000 hour non-degreed pilot with 1500 turbine pic any day of the week over the PHD with minimal flight experience.

Ahem, this may shoot holes all over my argument, but I can think of a dozen PhDs that I wouldn't trust within 50 yds. of an airplane. And I say that as a CFI and a college graduate.

Anyway, I think about all the idiotic things that I would have done and all the learning that I would have missed had I not gotten that degree, and I shudder. I can accept that not everyone wants to go to college. I can accept that not everyone needs to college to be employable. I can accept that there are non-degreed pilots that are every bit as sharp (if not more) as degreed pilots. But with all of you guys constantly moaning and groaning about how hard it is to make a living in this business and how competetive it is, I would seek every advantage to make myself attractive to an employer. And some folks here actively promote to the younger members of the forum that they should not participate in an activity, i.e. a college education, that increases their likelihood of getting their desired job, and I think it is reckless and irresponsible. Face it, 4 years is going to go by regardless, and no one is going to get a TJPIC job right out of high school... or college for that matter.

Forget not having a "plan B" with an aviation degree. Try falling back on a high school education!

Take things with a grain of salt that you read on this board.

This board, and life in general.

-Goose

 

[pilotyip]

350 you left one out

Jet Blue does not require a degree either

 

[Goose Egg]

I got a little curious, and I decided to do a cursory web search about the hiring requirements for the companies on 350's list. I was doubly surprised.

First of all, much to my argument's chagrin (I apologize for the anthropomorphism) many good jobs on the list did not say that a degree was preferred. Most of those were charter and fractional outfits.

Several of the larger regionals (the second surprise) as well as JetBlue and Southwest (no surprise there) stated that a 4-year degree was preferred. And one, Trans States I think it was, stated that a 2-year degree was preferred. Air Tran was the lone big jet flyer that did not say that it preferred any sort of degree (a little heads up, if you don't want to do the college thing.)

However, for my money, I'm glad I got the degree--if for no other reason I have something more than a high school diploma to fall back on. And I still must insist that the analytical skills that I gained in college make me a better pilot than I would have been otherwise.

-Goose

 

[bobbysamd]

Here, here

[W]ith all of you guys constantly moaning and groaning about how hard it is to make a living in this business and how competetive it is, I would seek every advantage to make myself attractive to an employer. And some folks here actively promote to the younger members of the forum that they should not participate in an activity, i.e. a college education, that increases their likelihood of getting their desired job, and I think it is reckless and irresponsible. Face it, 4 years is going to go by regardless, and no one is going to get a TJPIC job right out of high school... or college for that matter.

Forget not having a "plan B" with an aviation degree. Try falling back on a high school education . . . .

(emphasis added)

Finally, someone else who "gets it."