Gojet grows...even though TSHoldings Broke!

[TurnandPull]

Curious that one week after citing serious financial problems at TSA to encourage us to extend our already 9 year old contract that it's revealed that Trans States Holdings can afford to take delivery of 6 brand new CRJ700s as well as hold options on 10 more.

http://www.tradingmarkets.com/.site/news/Stock News/2195367/

These orders were apparently placed almost a year ago in a very different financial climate; but are we truly expected to believe that Trans States Airlines is on the verge of going broke but that Trans States HOLDINGS has $207 Million dollars laying around to cut a deal like this!?!

Is this Holdings way of announcing to us that we have no influence over their acquisition of more aircraft at Gojet? If so though, how will they continue to push a contract extension with no scope or job-protection at us under the threat of bankruptcy and catastrophe? Or was it not even their intention to have this information revealed?

I believe this signals the beginning of the endgame of this entire situation. TSH has been invited to speak with a small group of level-headed and highly respected pilots on behalf of TSA-ALPA with the intention of proposing a zero-cost way of solving this whole mess: Become a SINGLE CARRIER in the eyes of the NMB. As of now they still have not responded to our invitation to clear this whole mess up and put Humpty Dumpty back together again.

We are willing to pay a price to piece this company back together again and move forward in the same way as Chataugua/Shuttle/Republic or Colgan/Pinnacle. Only as one united labour group can TSH regain the respect of the industry and re-aquire the financing necessary to move forward in a rapidly evolving marketplace. Continuing to posture and bicker over pennies will only put this Single Carrier even further behind our stronger competitors. With a mutually sought single carrier determination we can put up fences, merge the lists in the fairest way possible under ALPA merger policies, and put behind us the mutually destructive relationship we've (both sides) built over the last decade.

 

[Salukipilot4590]

Yeah that sounds about like something TSH would do...

 

[Skippy]

if TSA got single carrier status that would mean the pilot group ultimately won, right albeit after a certain degree of sacrifice? TSA mgmnt prob not willing to do that--- will their pride continually increase their ongoing collateral damage- yep.

SKIPPY

 

[nwa_contrails]

I think this is nothing more than a management scare tactic towards our pilot group. This order was placed almost a year ago, to an "unidentified" party. Now, TSH chooses to reveal to the public that it was them? C'mon, the timing of this stinks, it's so blatantly obvious. The company is trying to scare the TSA pilots into submission of their "bridge" agreement by making us think they have their financing lined up again. They don't. GoJet will NOT grow until TSA pilots have some sort of stability/contract.

 

[joeywoofwoof]

Do you seriously think the Gojet pilots would go for the merging of our pilot groups? After all the hatred, trust me- not a chance. Good luck though guys, hope it all works out for you.

 

[nwa_contrails]

Well, it's probably going to come down to merge the lists (with a stapler for GJ i hope) or shut the place down, so...trust me- it's possible.

 

[JustaNumber]

... are we truly expected to believe that Trans States Airlines is on the verge of going broke but that Trans States HOLDINGS has $207 Million dollars laying around to cut a deal like this!?!

Anybody remember MAIR? These holding company managers should be tarred and feathered.

We are willing to pay a price to piece this company back together again and move forward in the same way as Chataugua/Shuttle/Republic or Colgan/Pinnacle.

Unfortunately, sounds like what Mesa/Freedom were willing to do, to the detriment of the entire industry. Be careful what price you are willing to pay. Agreeing to any contract that is less than at least industry average will result in changing the "Mesa sucks" campaign to "TSA sucks" in a hurry.

 

[Skippy]

who's doing the whipsawing now, bitch!

SKIPPY

 

[nwa_contrails]

hahaha!

 

[TurnandPull]

Because there seems to be quite a few naysayers that believe that the Gojet pilot group would have something to say about an NMB "Single Carrier" determination; let me explain the process to you.

1. Trans States Holdings and TSA/ALPA jointly would request the National Mediation Board determine that the Holding Co. was being operated as a single carrier.

2. The NMB would immediatly comply with this joint request because they'd love to get our butts off their docket and stop wasting their time. Also TSA will be the next case in their books to go to self-help and they would like to avoid this if at all possible.

3. At that time the NMB would count the number of pilots on both lists (including furloughees) and decide whether a vote will be required to determine who the joint collective bargaining agent will be. If one group outnumbers the other by a certain margine than no vote would be required and the NMB would impose the majority agent on the minority group.

4. In our case ALPA would be declared the de facto collective bargaining agent of the joint pilot group and ALPAs merger policies would begin. This could go well... Delta/Northwest, Pinnacle/Colgan or it could go very bad... USair/America West. Worst case scenario it goes to binding arbitration after 3 or 4 months and we all live with the results.

5. The company and ALPA would jointly agree to establish equipment fences and transfer protocols that would minimize the training cost impact on the company. Furloughed TSA pilots would be poured into the new metal coming to Gojet and all current Gojet pilots would be safe in their seats regardless of seniority until the fences come down.

And that's it folks. Anyone who's under the impression that we need to negotiate with or ask permission to go ahead with this from the Gojet pilots just has no fraking idea how the Railway Labour Act works. And if you think that TSHoldings will shoot this down to protect your dumb asses well you're even more naive than I thought. The Holding company is going to do what's in it's best financial interests... and right now that is sucking it up and rebuilding this dump back into a functioning 2 airlines with a merged seniority list. Folks like David are going to have to be content with the small win we're offering them rather than the big win of putting us all on the street.

 

[laserman2431]

Because there seems to be quite a few naysayers that believe that the Gojet pilot group would have something to say about an NMB "Single Carrier" determination; let me explain the process to you.

1. Trans States Holdings and TSA/ALPA jointly would request the National Mediation Board determine that the Holding Co. was being operated as a single carrier.

2. The NMB would immediatly comply with this joint request because they'd love to get our butts off their docket and stop wasting their time. Also TSA will be the next case in their books to go to self-help and they would like to avoid this if at all possible.

3. At that time the NMB would count the number of pilots on both lists (including furloughees) and decide whether a vote will be required to determine who the joint collective bargaining agent will be. If one group outnumbers the other by a certain margine than no vote would be required and the NMB would impose the majority agent on the minority group.

4. In our case ALPA would be declared the de facto collective bargaining agent of the joint pilot group and ALPAs merger policies would begin. This could go well... Delta/Northwest, Pinnacle/Colgan or it could go very bad... USair/America West. Worst case scenario it goes to binding arbitration after 3 or 4 months and we all live with the results.

5. The company and ALPA would jointly agree to establish equipment fences and transfer protocols that would minimize the training cost impact on the company. Furloughed TSA pilots would be poured into the new metal coming to Gojet and all current Gojet pilots would be safe in their seats regardless of seniority until the fences come down.

And that's it folks. Anyone who's under the impression that we need to negotiate with or ask permission to go ahead with this from the Gojet pilots just has no fraking idea how the Railway Labour Act works. And if you think that TSHoldings will shoot this down to protect your dumb asses well you're even more naive than I thought. The Holding company is going to do what's in it's best financial interests... and right now that is sucking it up and rebuilding this dump back into a functioning 2 airlines with a merged seniority list. Folks like David are going to have to be content with the small win we're offering them rather than the big win of putting us all on the street.

This seems like a brilliant plan but I think it has already been tried. See 33 NMB No. 9 Case Nos. R-7069 and R-7070 (File No. CR-6885) December 21, 2005 at http://www.nmb.gov/representation/deter2006/33n009.pdf

CONCLUSION
The Board finds that TSA and GoJet are not operating as a single transportation system for representation purposes under the RLA for the craft or class of Pilots. Accordingly, ALPA’s application in File No. CR-6885 is converted to NMB Case No. R-7069 and dismissed.

 

[laserman2431]

2. The NMB would immediatly (sp) comply with this joint request because they'd love to get our butts off their docket and stop wasting their time.

That's not how the court operates.

Also TSA will be the next case in their books to go to self-help and they would like to avoid this if at all possible.

Their decisions are not made based on who might or might not seek self help options. It just doesn't work that way.

 

[TurnandPull]

Either you don't understand, or you don't want to, that this differs from the previous Single Carrier petition in that Trans States Holdings is being asked to JOINTLY request this determination from the NMB. TSHoldings would not be objecting to the single carrier status as they did earlier, but would instead, without admitting wrong doing, state that they are NOW operating labour relations at the two carriers in such a way as to conform with the NMBs criteria of single carrier status. Thus the NMB would more than likely grant this request as there would be no dissenting party. The Teamsters would have to decide at that time whether to object; and why would they seeing as how their airlines growth is directly in jeapordy due to the carriers inability to secure finances for additional aircraft. Remember the recent revelation of additional aircraft orders is from last March... if they had the dough; you'd have the planes.

A merger of the lists in in the best interests of both pilot groups and the company. With a fair and equitable seniority integration Gojet frees itself of their pariah status and is able to secure the financing necessary to grow; and the TSA pilots ensure their continued employment and long term success. Also with so many TSA pilots on furlough Gojet would be able to effortlessly staff any new equipment without any problems. No more denied jumpseating... no more interference in the aquisition of leasing cash... just one big happy, though dysfunctional, family.

United we will go forward as a successful company with 2 certificates; divided we will drag the whole operation down in flames. Have no doubt; if TSA pilots lose this fight, we'll take both companies down with us. Trans States pilots are fighting for our very livelyhoods... don't think for a minute we'll care about yours on our way down. Gojet also cannot support the fat bloated network of management personnel currently at TSH... these folks want to keep their jobs as well; do you think other airlines will hire the very executives that brought down TSA?

Oh and Laserman... keep me straight on all my spelling mistakes here; I'm counting on you. And the NMBs job here is to safeguard the interstate commerce system within the guidelines of the RLA. Everything we're proposing is in those best interests, so what makes you think we'll find a roadblock in the NMB?

 

[laserman2431]

Either you don't understand, or you don't want to, that this differs from the previous Single Carrier petition in that Trans States Holdings is being asked to JOINTLY request this determination from the NMB. TSHoldings would not be objecting to the single carrier status as they did earlier, but would instead, without admitting wrong doing, state that they are NOW operating labour (sp) relations at the two carriers in such a way as to conform with the NMBs criteria of single carrier status. Thus the NMB would more than likely grant this request as there would be no dissenting party. The Teamsters would have to decide at that time whether to object; and why would they seeing as how their airlines growth is directly in jeapordy (sp) due to the carriers inability to secure finances for additional aircraft. Remember the recent revelation of additional aircraft orders is from last March... if they had the dough; you'd have the planes.

A merger of the lists in in the best interests of both pilot groups and the company. With a fair and equitable seniority integration Gojet frees itself of their pariah status and is able to secure the financing necessary to grow; and the TSA pilots ensure their continued employment and long term success. Also with so many TSA pilots on furlough Gojet would be able to effortlessly staff any new equipment without any problems. No more denied jumpseating... no more interference in the aquisition (sp) of leasing cash... just one big happy, though dysfunctional, family.

United we will go forward as a successful company with 2 certificates; divided we will drag the whole operation down in flames. Have no doubt; if TSA pilots lose this fight, we'll take both companies down with us. Trans States pilots are fighting for our very livelyhoods (sp)... don't think for a minute we'll care about yours on our way down. Gojet also cannot support the fat bloated network of management personnel currently at TSH... these folks want to keep their jobs as well; do you think other airlines will hire the very executives that brought down TSA?

Oh and Laserman... keep me straight on all my spelling mistakes here; I'm counting on you. And the NMBs job here is to safeguard the interstate commerce system within the guidelines of the RLA. Everything we're proposing is in those best interests, so what makes you think we'll find a roadblock in the NMB?

The NMB's integrated processes specifically are designed to promote three statutory goals:

• The prompt and orderly resolution of disputes arising out of the negotiation of new or revised collective bargaining agreements;
• The effectuation of employee rights of self-organization where a representation dispute exists; and
• The prompt and orderly resolution of disputes over the interpretation or application of existing agreements.

From http://www.nmb.gov/publicinfo/mission.html

Spelling corrections as requested sir.

 

[laserman2431]

I don't see the NMB reversing their decision unless it can be proven that there has been a significant change from 2005 to now. Are you aware of a significant change?

If all three parties, TSH, ALPA, IBT, were to agree, there would be no reason to involve the NMB.

 

[laserman2431]

I'm just saying that your vision of what is going to happen seems to have some pretty big holes in it. That doesn't mean there is no hope. I just don't think the path you have described is the one that leads to where you want to go.

 

[dispatchguy]

Burn this ********************hole down, and make sure that dot-not-feather is in the pyre...

 

[laserman2431]

Burn this ********************hole down, and make sure that dot-not-feather is in the pyre...

"I don't say we wouldn't get our hair mussed, but I do say no more than ten to twenty million killed, tops!...uh, depending on the breaks."

"I'm afraid, sir, I must ask you for the key, and the recall code. Have you got them handy, sir?"

P.O.E.

 

[lookin4better]

Regionals are just good time builders and stepping stone jobs... get the time, move on to better things and be happy.

just relAX and enjoy life.



Cheers!

 

[Salukipilot4590]

Regionals are just good time builders and stepping stone jobs... get the time, move on to better things and be happy.

just relAAX and enjoy life.



Cheers!

Well its easy to relax when you have a good job...the regionals aren't a 'good job.'

 

[lookin4better]

I dont think regionals are bad jobs at all.... I am not sure if one would want to get stuck at one for an entire career but to each their own.

But they do serve a good purpose for some needed experience to move on someday to either a good corporate or better airline job. I think many pilots at regionals get all bent out of shape because things arent working out like the brochure said it would. Either sit and let things happen or take charge and make things happen--- I choose the latter.

For example, I see the people in the back of private jets, they did not get where they are by being nice or yielding to their competitors in their respective industries. Like it or not, the strong and determined are the ones who succeed in American careers.

I know several FOs from Eagle who went over to G7 right away in 2005.. they are ALL at a legacy carrier right now. I am sure they lose zero sleep over the complaining on FI. Good for them on taking charge of their careers.

 

[nwa_contrails]

Good for them on taking charge of their careers.

Good for them for stabbing their fellow pilots in the back...karma's a bitch.

 

[McNugget]

GooJet Pilots Receive an Award Upon Training Completion

 

[koepp]

I don't see the NMB reversing their decision unless it can be proven that there has been a significant change from 2005 to now. Are you aware of a significant change?

If all three parties, TSH, ALPA, IBT, were to agree, there would be no reason to involve the NMB.

I don't think you and turnandpull are understanding each other. If the company wants it to be a single carrier, it's a single carrier.

He's talking about the company & ALPA filing jointly saying that the two companies are now operating as a single carrier. There would be "significant changes" that would facilitate this such as the company holding out to the general public as one entity, an admission that the same people control the collective bargaining process at both companies, etc.

This would wipe out the teamsters and impose ALPA on both groups (based on the relative size of each pilot group). That new law that requires allegheny-mowhawk LPP (1972) to be applied to a merger between two groups with different unions would also be tested. I doubt the IBT would even bother to fight it. About the best they could hope for is the NMB to require an election.

 

[laserman2431]

I don't think you and turnandpull are understanding each other. If the company wants it to be a single carrier, it's a single carrier.

He's talking about the company & ALPA filing jointly saying that the two companies are now operating as a single carrier. There would be "significant changes" that would facilitate this such as the company holding out to the general public as one entity, an admission that the same people control the collective bargaining process at both companies, etc.

I agree with your contention that TSH could try to change the operation to make it "a single transportation system." Of course, your first hurdle would be getting the TSH to want to change from two separate transportation systems to a a single transportation system. I am not sure that threats and coercion will cause that to happen, but you never know. It doesn't seem to have been very effective so far.

If TSH does decide to combine the two transportation systems, it will entail much more than just saying "we made a mistake and now we think they are the same." There were a number of factors considered in the Dec. 2005 decision that would have to change first. That's not to say it would be impossible.

TSH would have to change the factors that were considered in the Dec. 2005 case. These include such things as:

• Each Carrier has its own management team that is in charge of day-to-day operations.
• TSA was incorporated in Missouri while GoJet is an LLC formed in Delaware, and has no Board of Directors.
• Labor relations and personnel functions at GoJet and TSA are handled separately.
• Each Carrier has its own website which lists only its job openings, and each Carrier has its own employment applications and personnel forms.
• GoJet and TSA have separate terms and conditions of employment, different wage rates, and separate benefit plans.
• While the paint scheme for each aircraft is determined by the regional partner, GoJet and TSA fleet are identified accordingly, pursuant to DOT regulations, by stickers on each aircraft. Further, all Pilots wear the “brass” of their employing Carrier, GoJet or TSA, when dressed in the standard uniform of their regional partner.
• GoJet and TSA hold themselves out to the government and to the public as separate transportation systems. Each Carrier was issued its own Certificate of Public Convenience and Necessity from the DOT, as well as its own individual Air Carrier Certificate from the FAA. The fact that the Carriers
  hold separate Certificates strongly supports the Board finding separate transportation systems. See Frontier Airlines, 24 NMB 635, 643 (1997).
• When customers book travel on United, American, or US Airways, it is clearly indicated when the flight is operated by TSA or GoJet. Further, the Carriers fly different types of aircraft. GoJet operates exclusively CRJ-700’s, while TSA operates three different type of aircraft with 50 or fewer seats. FAA and DOT operating authority prohibit the two Carriers from swapping aircraft.

Watch for a change in these factors as an indication the two systems are being combined. I'm just saying it would be more complicated than just "saying that the two companies are now operating as a single carrier."

 

[laserman2431]

I don't think you and turnandpull are understanding each other. If the company wants it to be a single carrier, it's a single carrier.

He's talking about the company & ALPA filing jointly saying that the two companies are now operating as a single carrier. There would be "significant changes" that would facilitate this such as the company holding out to the general public as one entity, an admission that the same people control the collective bargaining process at both companies, etc.

This would wipe out the teamsters and impose ALPA on both groups (based on the relative size of each pilot group). That new law that requires allegheny-mowhawk LPP (1972) to be applied to a merger between two groups with different unions would also be tested. I doubt the IBT would even bother to fight it. About the best they could hope for is the NMB to require an election.

"an admission that the same people control the collective bargaining process at both companies"

Well, that sounds easy. Just say that.

Oh. Wait a minute. Wouldn't that be an admission of guilt, perjury, and violations of labor laws. Wouldn't that lead to serious personal and corporate liability? I was just wondering who would be volunteering to make that admission?

 

[CX880]

"an admission that the same people control the collective bargaining process at both companies"

Well, that sounds easy. Just say that.

Oh. Wait a minute. Wouldn't that be an admission of guilt, perjury, and violations of labor laws. Wouldn't that lead to serious personal and corporate liability? I was just wondering who would be volunteering to make that admission?

No it wouldn't. If that was the case, then the whole GJ debacle never would have happened and TSA pilots would have one list. It's no secret who controls GJ and TSA. I don't think anybody cares about a single carrier as long as there is job security under one pilot list.

 

[koepp]

"an admission that the same people control the collective bargaining process at both companies"

Well, that sounds easy. Just say that.

Oh. Wait a minute. Wouldn't that be an admission of guilt, perjury, and violations of labor laws. Wouldn't that lead to serious personal and corporate liability? I was just wondering who would be volunteering to make that admission?

I guess I'll rephrase that for you.

A statement that going forward the same people will control the collective bargaining process at both companies (no changes in other words).

I understand that it is not as simple as the two examples I listed. Those were just examples of the many changes that would have to happen. I never intended to state that those two items were all it took to be a single carrier.

I'm not really sure why you seem to think that it would be so hard for this to happen. If TSH & ALPA sign an agreement requiring a single carrier status, all of the necessary changes would be made to facilitate that. I know that the company doesn't want that, no company does. This is something that would be bought and paid for by the pilot group at the bargaining table (e.g., MAG, RAH, etc.)

 

[laserman2431]

I guess I'll rephrase that for you.

A statement that going forward the same people will control the collective bargaining process at both companies (no changes in other words).

I understand that it is not as simple as the two examples I listed. Those were just examples of the many changes that would have to happen. I never intended to state that those two items were all it took to be a single carrier.

I'm not really sure why you seem to think that it would be so hard for this to happen. If TSH & ALPA sign an agreement requiring a single carrier status, all of the necessary changes would be made to facilitate that. I know that the company doesn't want that, no company does. This is something that would be bought and paid for by the pilot group at the bargaining table (e.g., MAG, RAH, etc.)

It's certainly not impossible. The question is "Does ALPA have the bargaining capital?" So far, the answer seems to be "no."

As far as the MESA comparison, that was addressed in the NMB finding Dec. 2005:
"While ALPA relies on Mesa Airlines, Inc., CCAir, Inc., Air Midwest, Inc., 29 NMB 359 (2002) for support that GoJet and TSA constitute a single system, the facts of that case are inapposite. In Mesa, the Board made a single carrier finding because of the following factors: all three carriers were wholly owned by Mesa Air Group, Inc. (MAG); MAG’s website contained information about each of the carriers, including type of aircraft, number of employees, and daily departure schedules --presenting a public image of a single transportation system; applicants could apply for positions at any of the three carriers online through the MAG website; and labor relations at the three carriers was centralized, evidenced by the fact that the Flight Deck Crewmembers craft or class at two of the carriers were covered by the same CBA, and the heavy involvement of MAG’s CEO in contract negotiations and the overall labor relations at the three carriers. Id. at 368-380.

Here, while GoJet and TSA are both owned by TSH, there are no other similarities to the facts in the Mesa Airlines, Inc., above, decision. GoJet and TSA have their own websites with no information about each other or links to each other. Applicants for positions at either Carrier must apply through the designated web address or mail address, and each Carrier’s website lists only its job openings. Additionally, labor relations are handled separately at GoJet and TSA: with separate management teams; separate wages, benefits and terms and conditions of employment; and separate seniority lists and employee rosters."

 

[koepp]

It's certainly not impossible. The question is "Does ALPA have the bargaining capital?" So far, the answer seems to be "no."

As far as the MESA comparison, that was addressed in the NMB finding Dec. 2005:
"While ALPA relies on Mesa Airlines, Inc., CCAir, Inc., Air Midwest, Inc., 29 NMB 359 (2002) for support that GoJet and TSA constitute a single system, the facts of that case are inapposite. In Mesa, the Board made a single carrier finding because of the following factors: all three carriers were wholly owned by Mesa Air Group, Inc. (MAG); MAG’s website contained information about each of the carriers, including type of aircraft, number of employees, and daily departure schedules --presenting a public image of a single transportation system; applicants could apply for positions at any of the three carriers online through the MAG website; and labor relations at the three carriers was centralized, evidenced by the fact that the Flight Deck Crewmembers craft or class at two of the carriers were covered by the same CBA, and the heavy involvement of MAG’s CEO in contract negotiations and the overall labor relations at the three carriers. Id. at 368-380.

Here, while GoJet and TSA are both owned by TSH, there are no other similarities to the facts in the Mesa Airlines, Inc., above, decision. GoJet and TSA have their own websites with no information about each other or links to each other. Applicants for positions at either Carrier must apply through the designated web address or mail address, and each Carrier’s website lists only its job openings. Additionally, labor relations are handled separately at GoJet and TSA: with separate management teams; separate wages, benefits and terms and conditions of employment; and separate seniority lists and employee rosters."

Laserman,

I have already read all of the cases that you are citing here. This isn't about what it means to be a single carrier; It's about bargaining capital. As you stated, TSA ALPA does not appear to have the bargaining capital at this time.

By the way I was referring to this case http://www.nmb.gov/representation/deter2003/30n040.pdf

It's the one where ALPA/MAG filed jointly to the NMB because of an LOA that MAG/ALPA signed which would be similar to TSH signing an LOA with ALPA. Page three pretty much sums it up. If I remember right, the cost to the MAG pilots was very high. I wouldn't expect it to be any less for the TSA pilots. As it turns out, the company knows this.