GO Cleared for take-off!!

[P-Dawg_QX]

I assumed the "!!!111!!!one11!!!" meant he was joking.....

You would be correct, sir. Thanks for noticing.

I just figured that since we all knew this would into just another thread where people improperly throw around the "scab" term, I'd have a little fun with it.

 

[pipejockey]

OK, I haven't really been following this Go-Jet thing but I thought this seperate entity of Trans-States was only so they could operate an aircraft with over 50 seats for United. Americans scope prevents Trans-States from operating the larger jets. So whats with all the scab talk and lists and the like? Its not like Go-Jets is being formed to force Trans-States pilots to accept a sub-standard contract like Freedom was. I didn't think Trans-States was in contract negotiations, are they?

 

[TSA ERJ]

pipejockey, you are right, one reason for the formation of Go Jets is to get around the scope American has. But there are other reasons. This conveniently allows the company to bypass contract requirements of the Trans States pilots regarding at least industry average pay for a new aircraft type, and it may or may not violate our scope. (For all of you arm chair lawyers out there we'll leave it for the arbitrator to decide.) This is also exactly like Freedom. Though we are not in contract negotiations now (we will be this winter) Go Jet still puts considerable downward pressure on the TSA pilot group when negotiations begin.

 

[flyer172r]

TSA contract negotiations begin a year from now. By that time Go-jets will be fully operational, and I'm sure management would love to start those negotiations by saying something along the lines of "give us what we want or all your flying will be transferred to Go-jet." That's why we're so upset over the whole GJ issue. It may not hurt us next month when (if) they start flying, but it will a year from now. Anyone who says it won't isn't thinking long-term enough.

And honestly, if GJ isn't being formed to get around the TSA contract, and is for the sole purpose of being able to fly 70 seaters, then why won't they use TSA pilots? If they want to grow the company, that's fine, but work with the pilot group that got you this far, not against it.

 

[Victor Meldrew]

I just got hired as a DEC off the street. What a great company to work for!

starting class tomorrow.

I am sorry Mr Wooden Top but I really don't think that is something to be proud of.

 

[FreedomAList]

OK, Its not like Go-Jets is being formed to force Trans-States pilots to accept a sub-standard contract like Freedom was. I didn't think Trans-States was in contract negotiations, are they?

Actually, Freedom was originally created to get around scope at USAir. This should sound very, very familiar. (USAir pilots wouldn't let Mesa fly >50 seats at America West, if you can believe it). A year into it, relief from scope was ironed out, then the company proceeded to use Freedom a whipsaw during contract negotiations.

Expect more of the same when the time comes. TSA can threaten to "transfer assets" from TSA to Go-Jets down the road if the TSA guys won't accept a contract the same or cheaper than Go-Jets.

Mesa was offered less pay and worse work rules than Freedom by the time all was said and done. Then everybody got stuck on the same contract.

This is just a perfectly legal (and sickening) way for TSA to keep the man down. And I haven't seen anyone propose a way to stop it. ALPA is good for what, exactly?

 

[theo]

pipejockey, you are right, one reason for the formation of GJs is to get around the scope American has. But there are other reasons. This conveniently allows the company to bypass contract requirements of the Trans States pilots regarding at least industry average pay for a new aircraft type, and it may or may not violate our scope. (For all of you arm chair lawyers out there we'll leave it for the arbitrator to decide.) This is also exactly like Freedom. Though we are not in contract negotiations now (we will be this winter) GJ still puts considerable downward pressure on the TSA pilot group when negotiations begin.

If you are accurate in your comments the reason TSA is doing this is to avoid restrictions in the AA contract prohibiting the flying of larger aircraft. So how will TSA Holdings be able to use GO-Jet as a whipsaw against you by threatening moving flying from TSA to Go-Jet. Doesn't that put them right were they started? Wouldn't they then be in violation of the AA contract that prohibits such flying?

 

[Yank McCobb]

ALPA is good for what, exactly?

It's always the regional pilots (and usually the regional lifers) that shout this the loudest. The fact that they think ALL ALPA is for or has ever done is to exist to promote their individual careers is laughable. And shows ignorance personafied. I belong to a different union (an in-house) but not for a moment am I naive enough not to understand just how much ALPA has done for the safety, legal and regulatory side of this profession. Too bad we all aren't about ME, ME, MINE...ME, ME, MINE...ME, ME, MINE.

 

[MaxPilot]

If you are accurate in your comments the reason TSA is doing this is to avoid restrictions in the AA contract prohibiting the flying of larger aircraft. So how will TSA Holdings be able to use GO-Jet as a whipsaw against you by threatening moving flying from TSA to Go-Jet. Doesn't that put them right were they started? Wouldn't they then be in violation of the AA contract that prohibits such flying?

Trans States had United and USAir code shares in addition to American. The United and USAir flying could all be transfered to G_O_J_e_t.

 

[XTW]

.... but not for a moment am I naive enough not to understand just how much ALPA has done for the safety, legal and regulatory side of this profession. Too bad we all aren't about ME, ME, MINE...ME, ME, MINE...ME, ME, MINE.

Just to add, I've known several pilots that had medical issues. The ALPA medical department was VERY instrumental in getting those pilots through the process of regaining their medical certificates. That, in itself, can be well worth the cost of membership.

X

 

[A350]

All:

This is just another shining example of why management is winning and labor is losing. As long as there are more pilots out there looking for work than there are jobs, it is a supply and demand study.

If the previous poster is accurate, and TSA pilots aren't allowed to go to Go Jet, than it is indeed different than Freedom.

As a furloughed USAirways pilot, I can assure you that the main reason Freedom was created was to allow Mesa to operate aircraft bigger than 50 seats. The U scope clause was cut and dried. However, FreedomA list is correct. After that was ironed out, JO did use it to his advantage, but not in the way that almighty ALPA said so. If fact, this whipsawing started with the CCAir pilots, who mightily refused to screw their fellow pilots at Mesa only to be fed to the JO wolf when push came to shove. And the Mesa ALPA unit will deny this till their dying breath.

Mesa ALPA helped destroy their own chances for unity when they started calling Freedom pilots scabs. They allowed a rift in their own group by blackballing pilots who went to Freedom to get those 70 and 90 seat jets. Then the stage for disharmony between the groups was all but a certainty. This is where the two situations are completely different. Mesa pilots were encouraged to bid Freedom. ALPA put the stop to that in every way they could. Fear, intimidation, the scab word. Had Mesa ALPA let whomever wanted to bid Freedom without prejudice, everyone could have played nice and they together could have brought Mesa to its knees. This would have made JO take notice, or he could have started another airline at great expense.

So I don't know what the answer is for you folks at TSA.....but if you are allowed to go to Go Jet and can, do it now so the company can't play one group off on the other.

A350

 

[Black Water Dog]

OK, I haven't really been following this Go-Jet thing but I thought this seperate entity of Trans-States was only so they could operate an aircraft with over 50 seats for United. Americans scope prevents Trans-States from operating the larger jets. So whats with all the scab talk and lists and the like? Its not like Go-Jets is being formed to force Trans-States pilots to accept a sub-standard contract like Freedom was. I didn't think Trans-States was in contract negotiations, are they?

HoJet was formed manifestly to get around the 70 seat scope clause. People will argue the "nuances" for years to come, but the latent function of HoJet is to hose the TSA pilot group. One would be hard pressed to find a more pilot-hostile management in the regional industry. (Interviewing CFI's and other 121 wannabes, take careful note! There are worse things than flight instruction.) Only by owning a privately held and relatively obscure company does Hulas Konodia not have the notiriety of Frank Lorenzo.

 

[hoover]

If Go Jets were owned by anybody other than a guy who already owns an airline, no one would think twice about it. If the other airline were non-union, same thing. But because he already owns and operates a union airline, and Go Jets is "gasp" NON-UNION, all of a sudden it is evil incarnate, and anyone who ever thought of applying is a scab.

I have to hand it to ALPA. They have been successful portrayed themselves as "seizing the moral high ground"

 

[A350]

ALPA and "moral high ground" don't belong in the same thought. ALPA has good qualities insofar as medical, safety, and even legal when it comes to defending a pilot wrongly accused.

A lot of this "scab" talk is hype thrown about by people who have been airline pilots for all of about a month and think they are entitled to a quick upgrade and move up the seniority list. I have a news flash for the pilots out there. There is no entitlement in this industry. One day you are sitting pretty and the next you are furloughed because another union pilot has undercut your wages and benefits. Your choice will be to stick with ALPA and work at Home Depot while thousands of new pilots are hired or go and work where you can. Another reason ALPA is powerless to stop managements continuing assault on the profession.

I find it amusing that in the past few years, almost every regional airline in the country has at least doubled, even tripled in size and the majors have all shrunk sans JB and LUV. When Go Jets gets a ton of furloughed mainline pilots going there to be street Captains the TSA pilots will go bananas calling them scabs and start denying jumpseats to them. What hypocrisy. Regionals have become what they are on the backs of other companies and the jobs they provide used to belong to the mainline carriers. ALPA has stood there and watched it happen with nary a sound.

But "moral high ground"? I don't think so

A350

 

[fuelflow]

ALPA and "moral high ground" don't belong in the same thought. ALPA has good qualities insofar as medical, safety, and even legal when it comes to defending a pilot wrongly accused.

A lot of this "scab" talk is hype thrown about by people who have been airline pilots for all of about a month and think they are entitled to a quick upgrade and move up the seniority list. I have a news flash for the pilots out there. There is no entitlement in this industry. One day you are sitting pretty and the next you are furloughed because another union pilot has undercut your wages and benefits. Your choice will be to stick with ALPA and work at Home Depot while thousands of new pilots are hired or go and work where you can. Another reason ALPA is powerless to stop managements continuing assault on the profession.

I find it amusing that in the past few years, almost every regional airline in the country has at least doubled, even tripled in size and the majors have all shrunk sans JB and LUV. When GJs gets a ton of furloughed mainline pilots going there to be street Captains the TSA pilots will go bananas calling them scabs and start denying jumpseats to them. What hypocrisy. Regionals have become what they are on the backs of other companies and the jobs they provide used to belong to the mainline carriers. ALPA has stood there and watched it happen with nary a sound.

But "moral high ground"? I don't think so

A350

Well said.
The bottom line is that GJ will be staffed by mostly by furloughed mainline pilots with a good payscale once the contract is negotiated.