George Will

[Poahi]

That's my point- Obamacare takes control of nothing and, if anything, is a corporate blowjob to private insurance companies in attempting to mandate purchase.
But keep stretching

Obamacare controls medicare payments, the CAB controlled fares. On the other hand, the CAB didn't compel Americans to travel as a condition of citizenship.

 

[PCL_128]

There are probably 4-5 times as many pilot’s jobs now as there was in 1977.

Which has absolutely nothing to do with deregulation, and everything to do with an overall economic explosion that began in the early '80s.

 

[PCL_128]

It didn't really work.

It worked phenomenally, and created the greatest airline industry in the world. The airlines were stable, small markets were served, service was incredible, delays were minimal, etc. Everything has gone down hill since 1978.

Bring back the CAB!

 

[Poahi]

It worked phenomenally, and created the greatest airline industry in the world. The airlines were stable, small markets were served, service was incredible, delays were minimal, etc. Everything has gone down hill since 1978.

Bring back the CAB!

Here's why that will never happen:

http://library.findlaw.com/1988/Sep/1/129304.html

 

[pilotyip]

Which has absolutely nothing to do with deregulation, and everything to do with an overall economic explosion that began in the early '80s.

Don't completely agree, de-reg moved the ticket price down to complete with the Greyhound Bus. Now middle class people could afford to fly and they bought lots of tickets. My school teacher sisters are a classic example until the mid 80's they drove to FL to visit mom, now they fly.

 

[doh]

Life was good for a few pilots under regulation. There are probably 4-5 times as many pilot’s jobs now as there was in 1977. Back in reg time it was about 90% military that went to the majors. Dereg opened up a lot of airline job to non-military pilots. To return to regulation would raise ticket prices, reduce the number of passengers, and therefore reduce the number of pilots needed. BTW SWA the low cost provider has near the top wages, this was done under de-reg. Still is still a great way to make a living.

The CEO has little control over the airline, the airline is run by regulation and union contracts. They are at the mercy of the purchasing public, who with Internet access has made the airline ticket a perfectly elastic commodity.

People change airlines for a $1.00, Spirit is now one of the most profitable airlines, but has the cheapest fares. However they are now thinki9ng of a
charge to use the lav.

If the CEO has no control, wtf are we paying such outrageous compensation for? Don't try to sluff off CEO responsibility unless you are willing to sluff off the money as well.

 

[pilotyip]

If the CEO has no control, wtf are we paying such outrageous compensation for? Don't try to sluff off CEO responsibility unless you are willing to sluff off the money as well.

This is repeat but if fits here. This is a pilot board so saying anything in defense of management is like peeing into the wind, that it is going to come back to you. Now I will agree that CEO leadership in many cases leaves much to be desired and their compensation is obscene. An issue of ATW in 2002 had an article about “Airline Management a dying breed”; the article basically said no one wants to do it. The good track record CEO’s are going to other industries. With tremendous, payrolls, overhead burdens, and extremely low margins, there is no tried and true path to success. Most have tried to increase market share, but this has lead to low price and ridiculous breakeven load factors in 95% range. What is management supposed to do? Eliminating management will bring the end quicker for the airplane industry, and their salaries are insignificant to the airlines operating costs. I saw an article in ATW in 2001 that stated at DAL there were 17 members of top management made more than the top DAL Captain. The combined top 17 salaries equaled less than 1/6 of 1% of the combined pilot salaries. If management worked for free all pilots in the company would get a 1/10 of 1% raise. (for a $100K per year pilot that would be $3/wk increase in take home) Boy that raise would really make the pilot group happy. Top management possesses skills that allow them to move from job to job and command high salaries. And every one of these managers wants to see his/her airline prosper. They just can not do it.

 

[Ty Webb]

Fair enough, YIP, it is a tough racket. Airline history books are filled with examples of brilliance and buffoonery. Unfortunately, there is more of the later than the former, as many of our brethren who have lost their savings, their pensions, and their dignity can attest.

 

[IBNAV8R]

The greatest thing about de-regulation is that it allowed everyone to fly.

The biggest downside is that it allowed everyone to fly.

 

[doh]

This is repeat but if fits here. This is a pilot board so saying anything in defense of management is like peeing into the wind, that it is going to come back to you. Now I will agree that CEO leadership in many cases leaves much to be desired and their compensation is obscene. An issue of ATW in 2002 had an article about “Airline Management a dying breed”; the article basically said no one wants to do it. The good track record CEO’s are going to other industries. With tremendous, payrolls, overhead burdens, and extremely low margins, there is no tried and true path to success. Most have tried to increase market share, but this has lead to low price and ridiculous breakeven load factors in 95% range. What is management supposed to do? Eliminating management will bring the end quicker for the airplane industry, and their salaries are insignificant to the airlines operating costs. I saw an article in ATW in 2001 that stated at DAL there were 17 members of top management made more than the top DAL Captain. The combined top 17 salaries equaled less than 1/6 of 1% of the combined pilot salaries. If management worked for free all pilots in the company would get a 1/10 of 1% raise. (for a $100K per year pilot that would be $3/wk increase in take home) Boy that raise would really make the pilot group happy. Top management possesses skills that allow them to move from job to job and command high salaries. And every one of these managers wants to see his/her airline prosper. They just can not do it.

I am talking about managers in general. When the company turns a profit, they claim a huge bonus because they are responsible for the success. When the company loses money, they claim there was nothing they could do. But they have to be given a huge retention bonus to guide the company through tough times? I thought there was nothing they could do? What we really need is laws that hold these overpaid prima donnas responsible for the mess they make.

 

[waveflyer]

I'm sorry Yip, your numbers are grossly miscalculated.
The real money IS very significant + the incalculable losses that lack of leadership, greed, and selfishness directly and indirectly costs IS ENORMOUS.
In 2003, APA pilots accepted cuts approx $250M = 38% paycuts. Before the ink was dry AMR management installed an ongoing Management retention program that has rewarded failure to the tune of $260 Million PER YEAR. The max this program paid was $300M, and even in this recession- still pays $50-100M annually-
It's redistribution of wealth at its ugliest.
Now the APA and all it's members have sacrificed immensely and their airline is in no better shape for it- but managers have lined their pockets.
Sorry - but if managers want to go manage other companies- let them-
Leadership matters, business does matters- I know- but it's not more important than the leaders and inflight "managers" behind the yoke.

 

[PCL_128]

Don't completely agree, de-reg moved the ticket price down to complete with the Greyhound Bus. Now middle class people could afford to fly and they bought lots of tickets. My school teacher sisters are a classic example until the mid 80's they drove to FL to visit mom, now they fly.

Deregulation moved ticket prices down too far, to the point where consistent profitability and industry stability became impossible. That's not good for anyone, including passengers. Beginning in the early 1970s, the CAB began to loosen restrictions and allow increased competition on routes. Because of that, ticket prices had already started to ease up even before deregulation. Controlled competition under the auspices of the CAB was the path to success, and it still would have lead to the "average man" being able to fly, just like today.

 

[HalinTexas]

Here's why that will never happen:

http://library.findlaw.com/1988/Sep/1/129304.html

Good article.

 

[Tweaker]

Which has absolutely nothing to do with deregulation, and everything to do with an overall economic explosion that began in the early '80s.

Say it.

Lots of liberals admit it now.

SAY IT!

Say you love Reagan!

You're too weak in your "convictions" to admit such, me thinks.

 

[PCL_128]

Reagan = highly overrated. Not a bad President, but not a very good one, either.

 

[Tweaker]

So no messiah? Got it.

Perhaps the 100 millions who died under communism would disagree, but they don't get a voice though, due to being worm food.

 

[pilotyip]

Fair enough, YIP, it is a tough racket. Airline history books are filled with examples of brilliance and buffoonery. Unfortunately, there is more of the later than the former, as many of our brethren who have lost their savings, their pensions, and their dignity can attest.

true enough, and I too have bounced around this flying career through 11 jobs.

The real money IS very significant + the incalculable losses that lack of leadership, greed, and selfishness directly and indirectly costs IS ENORMOUS.

Again we agree on something, you notice I said upper management leadership often leads much to be desired.

Reagan = highly overrated. Not a bad President, but not a very good one, either.

I don't think this lady would agree with you. While giving tours on our squadron static display P-3 located at Selfridge ANGB, I told a story of operating against the Soviets during the "Cold War". We were flying Patrols out of BDA and KEF to confront the Soviet Submarine force. After telling the story, a voice in broken English came from a lady in the tour group. She said "Tank you, tank you, tank you. I tank Good evbry niht for you, All my life I brayed that you woud neber gibe into the Ruusian’s. The Ruusians bery bery baad to Czechs, they did terrible things to us, killed my frinds, now tanks to the Uunited Stats they be gone, you neber gab up, and I have my freebom to wisit and libe in your great country”
BTW My apologies to anyone offended by my Czech accent

 

[PCL_128]

Yes, because Reagan single-handedly ended the cold war.

 

[pilotyip]

Yes, because Reagan single-handedly ended the cold war.

You know that is not true. There were others like Margret Thacher, Lex Wasuesa (sp?) and Pope John the whatever who also played parts under his leadership.:laugh:

 

[CRAWDADDY]

How the heck did this thread get moved over here?

Anyhow, I think Mr. Will is way out to lunch on what has happend to the Majors

I'm sure he just loves flying around on RJs