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Future Pilot Pay will be at School Teacher Wages

UndauntedFlyer

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The future of all pilot pay will be at school teacher levels.

The fact that pilots made very large salaries in the recent past (40-years) was a fluke of rapid change in the industry. That time is past. Pilots will have to get used to it.

When the original pilot union contracts were signed, pilot pay based on level about equal to school teacher wages. A pay formula for pilots related to payload delivery (weight X speed) was used. In the ensuing years payloads increased at unimaginable rates, quadrupling X 10, and speed tippled too. Those times and years are now past and pilot pay structure is being re-normalized by supply and demand instead of payload delivery (weight X speed).

Now it's now back to the starting point: Pilot pay will be about equal to school teacher wages. Supply and demand will not increase pilot pay unless there truly is a supply shortage. Most people do not expect that to happen.

Teachers work for less because they say they love to teach; in the future, pilots will only survive if they love to fly.

Your comments are welcome!
 
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pilotyip

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You hit it on the head, if wages go to school teacher level, then the market will determine if piltos will put up with this level of pay. If there is a shortage pay will rise, if there is not it will remain at that level. A college degree may not be that important to airlines in the future if the supply of pilots shrinks. In my career I normally made less than my school teacher sister who topped out a $77K back in early 90's
 

tdwnds1

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Just a quick glance at PayScale.com shows that...

Average School Teacher Pay k-12, 40-45K (First year).

Average Regional Pilot Pay 20-30k (First Year)

Looks like pay will have to rise. :)
 

PCL_128

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Put the bong down, grandpa. Take a look at inflation-corrected pay levels for pilot contracts in the '30s, when pilot contracts were a new thing, and you'll see that your history is very far off the mark. They were making far more than we're making now.

Pilot pay will be going back up over the next 5-7 years. It likely won't reach pre-9/11 levels, but it will start getting close again. The industry pattern is looking good.
 

pilotyip

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what bong?

Put the bong down, grandpa. Take a look at inflation-corrected pay levels for pilot contracts in the '30s, when pilot contracts were a new thing, and you'll see that your history is very far off the mark. They were making far more than we're making now.

Pilot pay will be going back up over the next 5-7 years. It likely won't reach pre-9/11 levels, but it will start getting close again. The industry pattern is looking good.
Hey where did I say anything about pilot pay other than the market through the end user would determine pilot pay? I was in-line to become a $125K/yr 747 Capt at an ALPA airline in 1978 until it went out of business. I did my Employee Compensation class term paper on the history of airline pilot pay versus revenue generated. I am will aware of historic airline pilot pay. BTW Have a great Thankgiving holiday
 

UndauntedFlyer

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Put the bong down, grandpa. The industry pattern is looking good.

I'm not sure I know what a Bong is? I think that's what Olympians use. Right?

In any event, maybe that's what you've been using, considering your statement, "The industry pattern is looking good." What? Are you kidding or what?

So you think wages will be going up? Maybe so, and I hope you're right but I fear otherwise for you and your colleagues.

I truly believe that the future of the pilot job is school teacher wages. Be ready for that lifestyle or don't quit your day job.
 

PCL_128

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In any event, maybe that's what you've been using, considering your statement, "The industry pattern is looking good." What? Are you kidding or what?

Take a look at the recent contracts, gramps:

Alaska: large pay increases, almost returning to pre-9/11 levels
Delta/NWA: large pay increases, almost returning to pre-9/11 narrow-body levels by 2012
SWA: Pay increases that do get back to pre-9/11 narrow-body levels

And soon to follow:

Hawaiian: will likely have a deal by February that brings them up to Alaska's new scale
AirTran: will likely have a deal by spring that does the same

The pattern is looking good, old man. Go back to your shuffle-board game.
 

UndauntedFlyer

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Take a look at the recent contracts, gramps:

Alaska: large pay increases, almost returning to pre-9/11 levels
Delta/NWA: large pay increases, almost returning to pre-9/11 narrow-body levels by 2012
SWA: Pay increases that do get back to pre-9/11 narrow-body levels

And soon to follow:

Hawaiian: will likely have a deal by February that brings them up to Alaska's new scale
AirTran: will likely have a deal by spring that does the same

The pattern is looking good, old man. Go back to your shuffle-board game.

I'm glad to learn of all this good news. I was under the impression that there were 1,000's of pilots on furlough. I guess that's not true. And the Wide Body pilots are back to $300K, right? That's all pre-911. I'm glad to learn this too.

And let's see, as a 717 F/O your pay is over $100K, right? That's pre-911, right?
 
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pilotyip

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As said before the markets will determine what wages will be.
 

PCL_128

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As said before the markets will determine what wages will be.

Nope. The markets are only one factor. Labor unions see to it that pure market factors don't determine wages.
 

pilotyip

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Nope. The markets are only one factor. Labor unions see to it that pure market factors don't determine wages.
Yep kinda like the UAW jacked up the wages and benefits at GM, Ford, Chrysler. Those guys at Honda, Toyta, and Nissan never had a chance
 

PCL_128

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Yep kinda like the UAW jacked up the wages and benefits at GM, Ford, Chrysler. Those guys at Honda, Toyta, and Nissan never had a chance

All of the non-union employees at the Honda, Toyota, and Nissan plants in the USA make a lot more money because of the jacked up wages and benefits that the unionized UAW workers at GM, Ford, and Chrysler fought for.
 

acpilot

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All of the non-union employees at the Honda, Toyota, and Nissan plants in the USA make a lot more money because of the jacked up wages and benefits that the unionized UAW workers at GM, Ford, and Chrysler fought for.

Source? Or did you just make that up?
 

pilotyip

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benefits man, benefits

All of the non-union employees at the Honda, Toyota, and Nissan plants in the USA make a lot more money because of the jacked up wages and benefits that the unionized UAW workers at GM, Ford, and Chrysler fought for.

Yes, They got high wages in order to keep the unions outs, because the unproductive UAW work rules would destroy their company culture. Where everyone does everything to help the company and everything is everybody's job. But H, T & N did not have the union benefits, lifetime medical, pensions funded from current operations, and cola. This allowed their companies to remain profitable. BTW I have nothing agasint your union raising wages, but if they price themselves out of the market, the non-union air carriers will make out.
 

GoingHot

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As said before the markets will determine what wages will be.

As it should be. But right now and for the next 3-7 years, the Administration, Congress, Academia and the Media are pushing a brand of Socialism that would make Karl Marx and Captain Dad proud.
 

Rez O. Lewshun

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As it should be.

This coming from a guy who's gained from socialized healthcare and wages.



But right now and for the next 3-7 years, the Administration, Congress, Academia and the Media are pushing a brand of Socialism that would make Karl Marx and Captain Dad proud.

Put down Ayn..... before you speak of what you do not know, can you explain our free market system where corporations receive massive amounts of federal funds, proactively (R&D for defense contractors) and bailouts for bankers who lobby govt for relaxed regulations.... Simply put our corporations are socialized in the worse way.... they privatize the profits and use the the govt (tax payer funds) to accept the losses.

You are right in that it is the Admin, Congress, Acadamia and Media.... but you are negating the massive influx of corporate funds into these organizations. That is the problem. The very capitalist paradigm that you gush/lush/blush over is really a rigged system controlled by those who have huge amounts of money.

Your choice to "remove" yourself mentally from the problem is part of the problem. You are part of this "socialist" movement that has been going on since the 1950s and have took off in the 1970's, went full throttle in the 1980s and hasn't stopped.

The real question is.... are we going to be pawns or are we going to be real American citizens. The fact is, those who have money do not want to share access to govt. Sharing access to govt means less control to create favorable laws to keep money. The goal is to keep 305M Americans disconnected from govt and citizenship.
 

Rez O. Lewshun

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Yes, They got high wages in order to keep the unions outs, because the unproductive UAW work rules would destroy their company culture.


That management agreed to.....



Where everyone does everything to help the company and everything is everybody's job.

There is a solid ceiling where the social and cultural rules that apply on the factory floor certainly don't apply to the front office.

Your problem is, everyone doesn't include the exec team. Those clowns are in for them. They show up for their contract (yeah CEO's get contracts too) which rewards them for selfishness and failure. They only care about short term gains, specificallly their own. But you don't want to talk about that...

You expect workers thru their unions to be altruistic to their company all while their CEO rapes it. Simply put, if a well dressed suit rang your doorbell, you'd gushingly help them pack up your belongings and give them the keys to your car to rob you. Not only that you'd justify to your neighbors why it was righteous and how they should accept and assist robbery in their homes.


You accept elitism. Which is older than history itself. Some clown decided that he was better than you, and you accept that. Not sure why, when it is at your own detriment, but that is the mentality of a 21st Century wage slave.

Chiding unions is the house slave scolding the field workers. All while master laughs because he doesn't have to do the nasty dehumanizing work. Why you readily accept the role of wage slave against wage slave is amazing and disgusting.


But H, T & N did not have the union benefits, lifetime medical, pensions funded from current operations, and cola.

Only a tool would chide a fellow American for having a retirement and a healthcare plan. These Americans fairly negotiated these benefits in the free market. Do you have a problem with the free market?




This allowed their companies to remain profitable.

Because the Japanese govt has a national healthplan that doesn't burden their companies. Are you advocating national healthcare?


BTW I have nothing agasint your union raising wages, but if they price themselves out of the market, the non-union air carriers will make out.

Because we have laws written by corporations that make it so.



Sorry an audience was created for your ridiculous comparisons of UAW labor and the RLA. You're toolbox has only three talking points on FI and they are fundamentally limited and severely flawed; 1. Love of flying takes priority over a career in flying. 2. Management is righteous. 3. Unions are bad.
 

PCL_128

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Excellent posts, Rez!
 

pilotyip

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so what is the answer?

Excellent posts, Rez!
OK guys, PLC and Rez, you are so far down the road of unions can do no wrong and managmenent can do no right that is difficult to understand where you are coming from. I always thought I was a middle of the road union realist, having been a union member at two airlines. But for you two saying anything that is not 100% anti-management and 100% pro-union is attacked as not deserving the time of day. Unions have tremendous power to destroy, however no one is allowed to have any opinion but yours. So for your best shot asume congress pases the most pro-labour laws ever conceived, going back to FDR days. What would you guys make your airline do? Now remember your goal will be to keep everyone employed at higher eages with more days off without faising fares that would chase people buying tickets to non-union airlines. You know like NWA, UAL, DAL did in the late 90's. Come tell us all what union utopia will be like.
 
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