Fuel prices up and Delta Saabs stay

[WMUSIGPI]

That can't happen because the one mandatory requirement in integration is that anyone junior to you at your own company MUST remain junior to you after integration. So it's not possible to do a merger based on first airline hire date because it would cause someone to become more senior on thier own list than they were before.

 

[CptMurf]

How could anybody here be scheming? What sway could anyone here possibly have over this mediation (soon to be arbitration) process? You should know as well as anyone that this thing will be settled by Bloch in binding arbitration. He's an objective, professional, outside observer and will make as fair and reasonable decision as anybody could based on all of the facts and applicable rules and laws. Why do you care what anybody thinks? Just don't come crying to us when your expectations are trashed and we are proven correct cause all you'll hear is "I told ya so".

I'm sure it will go to arbitration. No doubts there. Your expectation could be crushed just as easily, but don't expect an "I told ya so" from me. I am more professional and mature than that.

 

[CptMurf]

That can't happen because the one mandatory requirement in integration is that anyone junior to you at your own company MUST remain junior to you after integration. So it's not possible to do a merger based on first airline hire date because it would cause someone to become more senior on thier own list than they were before.

Understood, but sad that seniority is applied and upheld at your own carrier, just not applied for integration.

Guess I'll wait and see.

 

[DoinTime]

I'm sure it will go to arbitration. No doubts there. Your expectation could be crushed just as easily, but don't expect an "I told ya so" from me. I am more professional and mature than that.

I don't think arbitrators just pull decisions at random out of their butts. The fact that they don't use doh should tell you something about where this is heading.

 

[Monster Buck]

No requirement for a fair integration? Have you ever heard of the McCaskill Bond Amendment? Obviously not. ALPA merger policy provides for the same things as Senators McCaskill and Bond legislated just a few years ago. A fair and equitable seniority merger.




What kind of expectation (other than complete arrogant speculation) did XJ pilots have prior to the acquisition? The longer term expectation for Mesaba pilots before the purchase was for continued furloughs and downgrades in everyone with their feet on the grounds eyes.




One mans scheming is another mans equitability. From our side of the fence, the Mesaba pilots are scheming to steal our weekends off and our upgrades that we already have or have a real, near term expectation for such. Its unfortunate that mesaba brings 1150 or so pilots into this merger and only about 600 longterm jobs but don't expect pinnacle or colgan pilots to pay for the decline of Mesaba Airlines.

I've not heard of any alpa-alpa seniority arbitrations that have given much weight to DOH. I hope the Mesaba pilots haven't already established their expectations around this measurement because it will certainly be a disappointment when the ruling comes in.

Man, you get the dumbazz of the day award. It has been a long time since I have heard someone so full of bull____.

 

[gojo]

No requirement for a fair integration? Have you ever heard of the McCaskill Bond Amendment? Obviously not. ALPA merger policy provides for the same things as Senators McCaskill and Bond legislated just a few years ago. A fair and equitable seniority merger.




What kind of expectation (other than complete arrogant speculation) did XJ pilots have prior to the acquisition? The longer term expectation for Mesaba pilots before the purchase was for continued furloughs and downgrades in everyone with their feet on the grounds eyes.




One mans scheming is another mans equitability. From our side of the fence, the Mesaba pilots are scheming to steal our weekends off and our upgrades that we already have or have a real, near term expectation for such. Its unfortunate that mesaba brings 1150 or so pilots into this merger and only about 600 longterm jobs but don't expect pinnacle or colgan pilots to pay for the decline of Mesaba Airlines.

I've not heard of any alpa-alpa seniority arbitrations that have given much weight to DOH. I hope the Mesaba pilots haven't already established their expectations around this measurement because it will certainly be a disappointment when the ruling comes in.

I have not heard one person scheminig, as you say, to steal anything from 9E pilots. All we would like is to end up pretty close to where we are now after the integretion is complete, nothing more. A fair integration would not take anything away from current 9E pilots. Instead, the addition of 60 jets to will bring many opportunities for 9E pilots in the not too distant future. Don't forget about 100+ of our senior pilots will soon be flowing to Delta, and there will also be movement with some going to FedEx, Jet Blue, and retirement.
You say we are engaging in arrogant speculation. I would say the arrogance is yours. Just the tone in your post proves that. We at XJ are a pretty humble pilot group. We have been through a lot the past six years. And yes, things didn't look good for us when Delta said they were removing the Saabs, but this is a very fluid industry,and things change quickly. And now it appears the Saabs are staying. To suggest that Mesaba was going to dwindle in size permanently is arrogant speculation. As I said, we've seen this before, just like when we lost all the Avros in 2006. I also said it's been a rough six years, we've taken taken a lot of hits from Northwest, and Delta. I just didn't think we would have to worry about our fellow pilots kicking us when were down.

 

[CptMurf]

I don't think arbitrators just pull decisions at random out of their butts. The fact that they don't use doh should tell you something about where this is heading.

Just because an arbitrator rules one way, does not make it fair, or just. We should not even be having this discussion, ALPA should have created a national seniority list the day after the first ALPA airline failed or folded. But they didn't. And now as a result every merging airline gets to fight this same battle.

I don't expect DOH, nor do I expect RS. Just because I want it, doesn't mean I expect it. I believe it will be a combination of the two, with fences. Just as it is with at DAL/NWA. With my seniority, I will be fine no matter the outcome. But for those that think it's going to be an X-X integration like Republic or that furloughs should be treated new hires, are the one that need to pull something out of their butts. It might be allowed under McCaskill - Bond, but not under the ALPA merger/fragmentation policy. Nor, is it the moral thing to do.

 

[bri5150]

No requirement for a fair integration? Have you ever heard of the McCaskill Bond Amendment? Obviously not. ALPA merger policy provides for the same things as Senators McCaskill and Bond legislated just a few years ago. A fair and equitable seniority merger.




What kind of expectation (other than complete arrogant speculation) did XJ pilots have prior to the acquisition? The longer term expectation for Mesaba pilots before the purchase was for continued furloughs and downgrades in everyone with their feet on the grounds eyes.




One mans scheming is another mans equitability. From our side of the fence, the Mesaba pilots are scheming to steal our weekends off and our upgrades that we already have or have a real, near term expectation for such. Its unfortunate that mesaba brings 1150 or so pilots into this merger and only about 600 longterm jobs but don't expect pinnacle or colgan pilots to pay for the decline of Mesaba Airlines.

I've not heard of any alpa-alpa seniority arbitrations that have given much weight to DOH. I hope the Mesaba pilots haven't already established their expectations around this measurement because it will certainly be a disappointment when the ruling comes in.

How long term are those 200's that comprise 90% of your fleet? With fuel the way it's going I would say that Saabs are longer term jobs than the jets Delta has said over and over again they want to get rid of. Oh, and I expected to be on a 900 a long time before someone on your list at the same seniority because we have 3 times as many. Shouldn't that be taken into account with expectations?

 

[bri5150]

Just because an arbitrator rules one way, does not make it fair, or just. We should not even be having this discussion, ALPA should have created a national seniority list the day after the first ALPA airline failed or folded. But they didn't. And now as a result every merging airline gets to fight this same battle.

I don't expect DOH, nor do I expect RS. Just because I want it, doesn't mean I expect it. I believe it will be a combination of the two, with fences. Just as it is with at DAL/NWA. With my seniority, I will be fine no matter the outcome. But for those that think it's going to be an X-X integration like Republic or that furloughs should be treated new hires, are the one that need to pull something out of their butts. It might be allowed under McCaskill - Bond, but not under the ALPA merger/fragmentation policy. Nor, is it the moral thing to do.

To add to this, I think some of the problem is that Pinnacle pilots seem to like to vocalize their wanting to screw Mesaba pilots. Not only on this forum, but to our faces when we interact. If you want to scheme about how you can screw us over, fine. Just do it in your shiny fuel guzzling 200 that makes you feel like you can control the world. It will make it much easier to fly with you when we have to, because right now, I am dreading the day.

I have heard nothing but "fair integration" from the guys I work with at Mesaba and those that are on this forum. I have heard nothing but scheming about why we should be screwed over with integration from Pinnacle pilots. I seem to remember you guys having a piece of crap contract from 1999 on July 1st. Should that be taken into account for expectations?

 

[Flyer1015]

Even Colgan brings more opportunities for flying than pinnacle airlines with their Q400's.

Don't even get me started, are you blind? Pinnacle Airlines formed the holding company Pinnacle Corp, then used money earned off OUR backs, the NWA convertible note of 191 million dollars, and used 20 million to buy Colgan. Then, the rest was used for the initial Q400 order of 10 aircraft. All the while we were told our ALPA TA offer would banrupt our company. Don't get me started on "career expectations." Colgan, from 2007, got to where it is today *SOLELY* because of the hard work (earned money) from Pinnacle pilots' backs. I hope the arbitrator takes this into consideration when the arbitrated SLI comes out.

 

[Flyprdu]

How long term are those 200's that comprise 90% of your fleet? With fuel the way it's going I would say that Saabs are longer term jobs than the jets Delta has said over and over again they want to get rid of.

LOL. The Saabs were slated to be parked in 2011 completely. Now they've been reprieved for the short term. And you interpret that as "they're here forever! High fives!"

You guys are too much. If I was to play musical chairs in 2016 and had the option of being in a CR2 or SF3 when the music stopped... I'd definitely take the RJ.

 

[bri5150]

LOL. The Saabs were slated to be parked in 2011 completely. Now they've been reprieved for the short term. And you interpret that as "they're here forever! High fives!"

You guys are too much. If I was to play musical chairs in 2016 and had the option of being in a CR2 or SF3 when the music stopped... I'd definitely take the RJ.

Short term? Are gas prices going down any time soon? Honest to god, June 30th if you would have asked, I would have said I would rather be at Mesaba as opposed to Compass (massive flowdown possiblity) or Pinnacle (90% CR2 that Delta is trying to get out of). Now, I can tell you I certainly would have rather been at Compass. I am still up in the air about Pinnacle seeing the attitude coming out of that place. I can only imagine what the flight deck is like. Unfortunately I won't be imagining too much longer.

 

[DoinTime]

How long term are those 200's that comprise 90% of your fleet? With fuel the way it's going I would say that Saabs are longer term jobs than the jets Delta has said over and over again they want to get rid of. Oh, and I expected to be on a 900 a long time before someone on your list at the same seniority because we have 3 times as many. Shouldn't that be taken into account with expectations?

So you think its a better bet to stick with an airplane that has an actual retirement plan in place and will be out of service by 2012 than an airplane that is protected under a service agreement until 2017? Wow!

 

[Flyer1015]

Hahaha, DoinTime, don't bother. "You can't fix stupid." -Ron White

 

[bri5150]

So you think its a better bet to stick with an airplane that has an actual retirement plan in place and will be out of service by 2012 than an airplane that is protected under a service agreement until 2017? Wow!

It seems as though the retirement plan ISN'T in place at this point. Who knows? Either way, I guess it's just an argument about who's planes are going to get parked first. Kinda dumb. Delta wants to get rid of both of them. Cya May 1st!! Can't wait!!

 

[gojo]

Hahaha, DoinTime, don't bother. "You can't fix stupid." -Ron White

Nice, you guys are freaking amazing. All you want to talk about is how to screw people and how you can justify it. The fact is no one knows. If fuel prices don't go back down, Delta could easily go to Pinnacle and offer 1 for 2 deal simular to what they did to ASA, or they could find a better replacement for the Saab. I find it hard to believe they will get rid of the turbo props all together. At any rate what do you think Pinnacle should do, wait for the contract to expire in 2017, or try to diversify the company in preparation for that date? Because it's a good bet the 200 contract won't be renewed.

 

[DoinTime]

It seems as though the retirement plan ISN'T in place at this point.

Why does it seem that way? Because you read a rumor on FlightInfo? According to SEC filings, there are six DAL Saabs coming out of service in the first quarter of 2011 alone.

 

[WIPilot]

Why does it seem that way? Because you read a rumor on FlightInfo? According to SEC filings, there are six DAL Saabs coming out of service in the first quarter of 2011 alone.

And the SEC filings are always right!!!!!

 

[LazyLightnin']

My flight attendants always tell me, " you wouldn't believe how many Dbags I fly with..."

I always say, "there can't be that many in this profession, you must be exaggerating"....

But you girls just keep proving me wrong

 

[LazyLightnin']

Just kidding, guys.