Frustrated

[adam_jorgensen]

Ok guys, I'm really frustrated about this whole degree thing about how you absolutely have to have one in order to be hired for a major airline. This is a argument that has been going on in my head for a long time and I don't know what to come to.

First of all, what is more important? Knowing how to fly, or wasting all your time and money getting a degree? All of you who got your embry riddle degrees must have been millionaires or something, but for a person like me, who comes from a family who doesn't have much money, what do I do? How does getting a degree make you a better pilot to begin with? It doesn't make sense to get a degree in some field of education if you never are going to use it because you are going to be a pilot. And how do I know what everybody here tells me applies to my situation? My dad doesn't believe in this process, and I'm starting not to believe either. He thinks, and he is probably right, that I should go right to the horses mouth and find out if you need a degree or not (that is, the major airline.)

The thing is, you can't become a doctor and a lawyer at the same time. Choose one or the other. I'm not going to waste my time, where I could be flying, taking a degree in some area that I will never do. I can't go to university and take flight training at the same time. It would be just too much for me. I don't have to mental capabilities of going to school and taking my commercials license at the same time. And besides, why would you go to a university for 4 years to get all your flight training when I can get it from my local flying club in 4 months? Finically, I can't do it. Does this mean I can't become a pilot for a major airline? I'm not superman. The work load from both commercials license studying and university would be just enough for a mental break down. And then there's the money. My dad thinks that I should just go and concentrate on my flying, because that is what I have a passion for, that is what is important to me. I don't want to put it off because I have to go to university. I can't go to some school like embry riddle where it would cost me like 100,000 dollars to go there that is just impossible for me to afford. You can't even take out loans that big. I don't understand why a major requires a degree from someone who has the same education of flying an aircraft of somebody who doesn't have a degree. All they would care is that they can fly an airplane. Why should a degree matter?

Guys, I'm really burnt out of this whole thing. All this time, everybody has made me think that to a pilot, getting a degree is the most important thing in his career. But what about flying? Getting experience? A degree will do you no good if you don't have both that. You can't tell me that a degree is more important than flying experience. You might say, well they want to hire a person who they know is well educated because they have a degree but still, that may make you a better doctor, how does that make you a better pilot? But I just don't know what to do. I have told you what my dad has said. He thinks I should get maybe a diploma for a trade like avionics and if I apply for an airline that does require a degree, that I go back to university for 2 years and get a degree. All and all, he just wants me to concentrate on my flying and not worry so much about degrees and all that other school bs. I just don't know anymore though. I could argue this till my face turns blue. I just don't have the time or the money for both. If I would have to choose one, it would defiantly be the flying. What's more important to you?

 

[adam_jorgensen]

And another thing, please don't say I'm a fool or anything thinking that a collage education is not important and for the birds. I think its very important to have a collage education for a person who is pursuing something that they can use, but I'm talking about my situation here. I have read past threads similar to this one about people just throwing arguments at each other about degrees most saying that you have no chance in life because you have no degree. Bow down and worship the degree.

 

[Flic1]

Well dude, I know what you mean about the college thing and if you really need it or not. Unfortunately, most employers look for this within the aviation industry as well as outside of it. I've debated the whole thing numerous times with people and I finally came to the conclusion that college just prepares you for life in general. I don't remember shi* from any of my classes but it shows that you can manage your time and use your brain. You may not be any smarter after your 4+ years and $30,000 + of debt,but it is a nice accomplishment and a necessity in todays world. I would highly recommend getting the degree just because of the times we are living in and the competetiveness out there. You don't HAVE to go to Embry-Riddle or any of the other Aviation schools. Go to a local school near where you live and fly at your local FBO. I went to a local Community College for my first 2 years while I got my Private/Comm/Instrument at my local FBO. I finished up at an affordable non-Riddle 4-year school that has a well known Aviation program which gave me credits for my ratings. Try looking into Financial Aid and student loans for college. There are many different ways to fund it. I know where you're coming from because I went through the same thing. My Dad never went to college but had an extremley succesful career and has been with he same company for 40 years. Things were different back in the 50's and 60's though. Nowadays it seems like you need an MBA or PhD to be competetive. Just research your options and I'm sure you can find an affordable option. Good Luck!

 

[Birdstrike]

"....I can't go to university and take flight training at the same time. It would be just too much for me. I don't have to mental capabilities of going to school and taking my commercials license at the same time...." Adam Jorgensen

First of all, calm down and stop the whining. The answer is yes, you need a college degree if you want to work for the majors. It's not negotiable. Either accept that and move on to the "how to" or change your goals. The airlines want to see that you have the discipline and commitment that it takes to get a degree. Those same skills mark you as possible airline pilot material. It's just a prerequisite so get over it.

You are new to flying. As you grow and mature in it, you will find that your capabilities will grow if you work hard at it. You will have to learn how to do several things at once (like flight training and college courses) because the education never ever stops; you are always learning new things. If you truly don't believe you are up to it, then you're in the wrong career field. But there's no reason why you can't take college courses and flight training at the same time. Yes, it's called busting your arse but that is what this field demands. Period.

Look at all the options you've got; community colleges, on-line universities, night school, even the military. You don't have to spend a fortune to get a degree anymore. You don't even have to leave your house if you don't want to (Univ of Phoenix 100% on-line) You probably aren't even married and there's guys out there right now with families that have found a way to get it done. Get a student loan or a job; then work nights, fly mornings, study in the afternoon. Figure out a way to make it work. This board is full of examples of people who got it done through sweat and tears. You can too.

It all comes down to desire. How badly do you want to succeed in this field? If you''re not 110% into the hard work it takes to learn new skills, you'll never make it. If you do the work, you will succeed. Flying skills are only a part of it. The day may come when you lose your medical or become disqualifed for some other reason. Then that college degree will come in handy. Even if it's in basket weaving it marks you as a finisher - someone who started something and completed it. Ready to hit it?

 

[chawbein]

First step = adjust your attitude.

 

[ceo_of_the_sofa]

If you had gone to college, You wouldn't even be debating about such nonsense as not going to college...make sense? If not, go to college

 

[Timebuilder]

I am sympathetic.

In my opinion, the current state of organized academia is like organized crime: you have to pay a lot of money and spend a great deal of time in order to "prove" to the world that you are an educated person. It's a form of extortion.

Remember the old commercial for CLEP, where Abraham Lincoln is looking for a job? It might have been before your time. When asked about his education, Abe tells this Dennis Franz type behind a grimy desk that he's "done a lot of reading, sort of on my own". The guy behind the desk says "look, Lincoln, you know you're a smart guy, and I know you're a smart guy, but you ain't goin' nowhere without that sheepskin, fella!"

That's the problem, as I see it. A lot of dullards get to pretend that they are educated, and a lot of educated people don't have the "proof" without playing the game.

So, Adam: do you want it bad enough?

 

[adam_jorgensen]

Ok, first of all, I'm not whining. I don't respond well to comments like that. I'm just really confused. Put your self in my shoes and you would know how it would feel. Yes, I really want this badly but how far will I be able to go money, time, and energy wise? You may as well become president of the USA for the amount of work you have to do in order to be a pilot. I know this world is competitive but what I am going to do is find more practical proof than seeking the net for my info, and go to an actual airline company and ask them in person if they require a degree or not.

Who am I going to believe, the good people here, or my old man?

 

[firstthird]

If you want to do something, you ask people who have already done it.

I'm sure your Dad is a great guy but unless he is a pilot at a major airline or an HR type that hires for a major airline, he probably isn't the best one to tell you how to get hired at a major.

And for truth in advertising, I'm not a major airline pilot yet either. I was military and am currently in the reserves waiting to start class at SWA. So, what I know is from talking with people that are major airline pilots and the Air Inc types that make it a business to get people hired by airlines.

With the caveat out of the way that I'm not there yet, here is my opinion. Yes, you need a four year degree. There are guys who have made it to the majors without it but do you want to bet your career on being the 1 in 50 exception for try to be one of the 49/50 exactly what they are looking for. I'd recommend being what they are looking for. They have the job that most of us want, so it is their house and they make the rules. Whether it is fair or you like it, that is immaterial. If you want their job, you apply under their conditions.

That all being said, there will likely be less 'major' airline jobs in the future with more 'regional' jobs which traditionally haven't required a 4 year degree. But if the regionals become the new majors, guess what they'll probably start requiring.

Another way to think about it is that pilots consider themselves professionals in the same ballpark as doctors, lawyers, engineers rather than tradesmen like plumbers, electricians, carpenters. That can be its own argrument I'm sure, and I know that many tradesmen make great livings, especially the ones that own their own business. But, for now, pilots are paid more like doctors and lawyers not like plumbers or carpenters; it could be that a part of keeping that in the future is to require a 4 year degree. just a thought.

 

[Beechnut]

Ok, first of all, I'm not whining. I don't respond well to comments like that. I'm just really confused. Put your self in my shoes and you would know how it would feel. Yes, I really want this badly but how far will I be able to go money, time, and energy wise? You may as well become president of the USA for the amount of work you have to do in order to be a pilot. I know this world is competitive but what I am going to do is find more practical proof than seeking the net for my info, and go to an actual airline company and ask them in person if they require a degree or not.

Not everyone has the means or opportunity to be the President of the United States. Not everyone has the means or opportunity to be a major airline pilot either. Not everyone gets to do what they WANT to do. But everyone gets to do what they CAN do. Some can handle digging ditches. Some can handle shooting dope and sitting in a box. Some can have a good career at a regional airline that doesn't require a college degree. I'm pretty sure I CAN NOT get on at Southwest because I CAN NOT afford a 737 type. This is my fate. Oh well.

Degrees show that you have the ability to see through a plan, even if it takes years. The biggest thing I got out of college wasn't who did what in 1492. Instead, it was to learn how to learn, and handle large amounts of work over a fairly short time.

Good Luck!

S.

P.S... and I've said this before: The more people that think getting a 4 year college degree is a waste of time, the better my chances are of getting on at a major.

 

[SaabStory]

Please, please tell me this is flamebait. Anyhow, I happen to agree with Adam, "collage" (an art form in which bits of objects are pasted on a surface) is rather useless to the aspiring aviator. "College" on the other hand, well that's a different story.

 

[PositiveRate]

"Degrees show that you have the ability to see through a plan, even if it takes years. The biggest thing I got out of college wasn't who did what in 1492. Instead, it was to learn how to learn, and handle large amounts of work over a fairly short time."

Well said. Adam, there are certain things we do to prove ourselves as professionals. College is but one of these stepping stones. You might even learn a thing or two not related to flying along the way...novell idea. Airlines hire people (well-rounded, well-educated, diverse backgrounds), not the numbers in your logbook. Maybe try checking the attitude at the door and focus on enjoying the journey...just a suggestion.

 

[uwochris]

I am currently studying at a University and flying 3 times per week, working on my CPL right now. The workload is extremely heavy at times... I literally study 6+ hours every day on weekends, and about 3+ hours on weekdays. Lots of hard work but it will be worth it 1.5 years from now. The downside of this is that I often cannot spend as much time as I would like towards my flying... it kind of gets the secondary treatment, because for my program I need to maintain a certain average on the academics or you get booted. I also have to maintain an 80% average every year to keep my scholarship... hard work, yes, but worth it.

How did I get the money to be here? Well, anyone can do it! I have received enough in scholarships over the 3 past years to pay off my CPL and I still have money coming in. In Ontario (Canada) you can get an interest free government loan where the government will pay for some of your education, and you pay back 6 months after graduation. I got $8000 this way this year, along with a $3000 bursary. Perhaps you have options like this in the USA? Also try applying to various scholarships out there. There's a heck of a lot of money out there available to students... you just have to look for it! And trust me... it pays off to be a nerd

If I were in your shoes Adam, I would consider one of two options:

(1) Join the Air Force... get your flight training and degree all paid for. This will, however, require a lot of dedication and hard work for it to pay off. Good part, however, is you don't have to worry about your "money situation."

(2) Get a diploma, fly on the side like your old man suggested. After the diploma, work as a CFI or pilot. Earn some income. After enough has been saved, go back to school or complete your degree through correspondence. Doing a degree online requires, however, a lot more motivation than being at school. It can be done though.

So Adam, I think those 2 options are the best for you (assuming you want the degree and want to fly for a major). Some Regionals and Corporate airlines may not require one, so if you are absolutely against going to school, set your goals to something different. You'll still be flying, and who knows, you may even get lucky!

I do agree with some of your views though. It is pointless to get an education and spend so much money on something you hope you never have to use! It shows airlines, however, that you are highly trainable and that you can stick to a task through completion. This can also be shown with a CPL or ATPL, but since all pilots already have them, why not use another means to weed people out? The airlines will be investing much money in your training... they don't want to take the risk of hiring someone who will not be able to handle the stress. The degree is physical proof that you have survived a strict and structued learning environment.

The key to achieving success at ANYTHING is time management. It might seem impossible to manage school and flying, but it is not. If you work hard enough you can achieve whatever you want. Just don't give up.

 

[Old Crow]

Life is about doing the best one can in all aspects. Going the extra mile.

When you are in charge of your companies hiring department, it's easy to look at the statistics and see that only 10 percent of Americans have a four year degree. So if you look there for your employees, chances are that those people will give the same effort to make you money because they just want to do more than the rest.

Now go to your room and study!

 

[Rush Limbaugh]

"Put your self in my shoes and you would know how it would feel. Yes, I really want this badly but how far will I be able to go money, time, and energy wise?"

Adam, did it cross your mind that almost everyone responding to your posts have been in your shoes and figured out how to reach their goals with their own limitations? Trying to become a major airline pilot without money to get started is not a new phenomenon. Listen to what they are telling you and lose the "I don't respond well to that" attitude. I personally don't give a sh!t what you respond well to. You asked a question and it is being answered by people who have been exactly where you are. If you won't like the answer, don't ask the question.

From my view sitting in the cheap seats, I see 2 things. The first is that your family isn't made of money and second, it doesn't sound like your dad wants you to go to college. First of all, what family is made of money. Most people have to make tremendous sacrificices to go to college. There are plenty of financial aid opportunities to get you through college. All it takes is a little research. Next, I think the fact that your dad doesn't want you to go to college speaks volumes. With his attitude, I would guess that he didn't go to college himself, otherwise, he would understand the value. If that's true, it could possibly be the root of the problem...money, or lack thereof.

As far as your "a college degree doesn't make you a better pilot" argument, remember that about 85% or so of college graduates do not work in the field they got their degree in. It doesn't matter what your major is, the job market likes college degree's for positions that pay a reasonable salary. So you could say "a college degree doesn't make you a better (insert job title here)" for 85% of the jobs that require a degree. The necessity of a college degree is the way of the world, you can either get on board with that or hope that you are an exception to the rule just like I don't have to save any money because I just know that I am going to win the lottery and that will pay for everything.

Here's my advice that probably isn't worth much: Do yourself and your unborn children a favor and go to college. If you make the sacrifice now, you are putting them in a better position when they are facing the same challenges.

 

[enigma]

Adam.

If you're not whining, you're doing a good job of pretending. Life's not fair, accept it and move on. Yes, you need a four year degree, and no, it's not a waste even though it seems to be so.

I suggest that you find a junior college that offers a flight program. (not San Juan, they are too expensive) Go there and get your two year along with a Commercial ME/CFI.Then instruct full time until you get the time to go to a regional. Then take classes from any of many on-line universities. CLEP out of every class you can and you'll be finished before the majors start hiring again.


Good Luck.
8N

PS get the four year in something other than aviation

 

[bobbysamd]

To swim with or against the current?

. . . . is how I see your dilemma. And, I believe that you want to swim against.

Let me enumerate a few reasons why a four-year degree will make you a better pilot.

For one thing, a degree will make you better prepared for life. While I love an Aeronautical Science degree and believe that you can do many things with it, a degree in any major signifies a certain level of preparation, qualification and skill. You have to go to at least a few classes and do at least a little studying to earn a degree. In so doing, you receive an education and some training in how to think and reason. That will make you a better pilot, and person, to boot. It helps to be a better person if you want any kind of decent-paying job, in any industry or profession. The degree signifies a skill that you can use either in or outside of aviation. Let's say you earn a degree in English. You can learn to be a copywriter at an ad agency. You can teach English. You can be a proofreader. There are many things you can do - things you may have to do and/or fall back upon if aviation does not (1) work out for you, which is possible or (2) circumstances beyond your control force you to take a hiatus from aviation.

Another thing is the degree signifies that you can complete a training program. All airlines have training programs. They may dubious of your ability to complete such programs with only high school - although you know otherwise. However, with a degree and a decent grade-point average, you've proven it. You need good study skills to do well in college. You need good study skills to get through class at an airline.

I think another reason why airlines want college-educated people is they want well-rounded people working for them. Airlines have tried to hire a diverse group of people. They don't hire strictly Aeronautical Science majors. They hire people with philosophy degrees. They hire lawyers (J.D. degrees) who want to change careers.

Having written all of this, let's boil this down to practicality. The airlines give preference to people with college degrees, with less preference given to people with some college, and the least amount of preference to people with no college. That's just how it is. Aviation is a highly competitive world. If you want to succeed in it, you have to present the best qualifications, always. Some things over which you have no control. With education, you have control. Go take the SAT and get into college. You'll find time to fly. If you cannot concentrate on both, finish college and then concentrate on flying. You won't lose out that much if you go that route.

Good luck with college.

 

[eriknorth]

I think its pretty obvious that you need a degree. I'm in the same situation. I go to college, and I study my butt off, both college and flight training, just do I can check the box on an airline application. Here's the thing; you can be a selective hearer and listen to the people who make you feel better about what you are doing, or you can just wise up and go to school. It's not even about if YOU think that it is needed or not. A college education shows a company that you are not only well-rounded, but there are a lot of life skills that you take out of college as well. Look at it this way: you need a degree. If you think you can make it without one, have fun wasting your money and time on flight training, because I will be sitting in your seat in the cockpit.
Good Luck.
BTW it is wise to have something to fall back on in life in the event that you lose your job, medical, etc.

 

[flydog]

I have yet to interview for a flying job where they gave a rats patooty about flying skills and most airlines have gotten rid of sim evaluations.

If you want a job flying especially in this economy you need the hours, college degree and a squeaky clean background. If you have all 3 you will someday fly for a major airline unless you have the interviewing skills of a Alfred E. Neumann. Bonus points if you are ex-military, a woman or a minority.

 

[Finch]

The great debate...

You guys have pretty much covered all my sentiments.

I can remember wondering why I was in primary school! What was the point I asked myself? The big rip is that it takes 12 fookin' years to even get to the stage where you are actually allowed to think and are expected to give your input on anything. Before that, you get the best marks for spitting up what is told to you. I loved education as soon as I was out of high school.

As aircraft become more complex and require less input from the pilot, we will see a greater importance placed on people that can:
Monitor systems
GET ALONG with their co-workers (on and off the flight deck)
Have a to the minute history of where they were and what they have done since birth
Be able to absorb the vast amount of tech needed to fly these new aircraft
Have good customer service skills
Be able to sit in one spot for hours


Getting a degree is perfect training for most of the above......glad I had fun doing mine. I can't really say that the money I paid got me anything in the way of an education that was relevant, but hey what do you want for 35K? And the girls were pretty good too!

Finch