FRONTLINE - United Bankruptcy

[rjcap]

FRONTLINE - United Bankruptcy

Frontline is on doing a review of the United Bankruptcy. The manipulation of the employees and the manipulation of the bankruptcy laws by the banks and the mgmt.

This is not very pleasant to watch.

 

[Doug Parker]

.


It has got to be even more unpleasant to work there.........................








.

 

[Draginass]

The show was really about the demise of private pensions, the severe faults of 401ks, and the coming meltdown of the baby boomer retirees (or more accurately, the inability to retire).

Nevertheless, the example of United was particularly pertinent.

It also pointed out that the reason that Tilton and the corporate and government elite is because the workers genuflect to their will.

Right now, Bush and his richy Republicans and the corporate elite have the economy just where they want it . . . . middle/working class sons off fighting an endless war and allowing an endless supply of virtual slave-like labor to flood across the border to hold down wages and put more profits in elite pockets.

 

[Big Duke Six]

Watching that show just about made me ill. Ill at many different levels.

That said, Dragin, I'm not saying I totally disagree with you but you must have missed the part where they say this M.O. has increasingly become the norm since the Fed Bankruptcy laws were re-written in 1978 to favor corporations.

Let me see, who was President then? Hmmm, I know it's here somewhere, I just had it......give me a second..... oh darn.... where'd it go? It must have fallen off my desk... who was that guy?......it must be here somewhere....

 

[rjcap]

Watching that show just about made me ill. Ill at many different levels.

That said, Dragin, I'm not saying I totally disagree with you but you must have missed the part where they say this M.O. has increasingly become the norm since the Fed Bankruptcy laws were re-written in 1978 to favor corporations.

Let me see, who was President then? Hmmm, I know it's here somewhere, I just had it......give me a second..... oh darn.... where'd it go? It must have fallen off my desk... who was that guy?......it must be here somewhere....

The peanut farmer ???

 

[Corona]

Watching that show just about made me ill. Ill at many different levels.

That said, Dragin, I'm not saying I totally disagree with you but you must have missed the part where they say this M.O. has increasingly become the norm since the Fed Bankruptcy laws were re-written in 1978 to favor corporations.

Let me see, who was President then? Hmmm, I know it's here somewhere, I just had it......give me a second..... oh darn.... where'd it go? It must have fallen off my desk... who was that guy?......it must be here somewhere....

It's a bit of a reach to pin this on Carter. It was buried on, what, page 23,457 of the tax code? I hardly think that was his front-line issue.

I thought it interesting the point that many major tax changes have taken place because of these little "favors" Congressmen do for the lobbyists.

By law, corporations exist solely by the favor of the voters. Nowadays, that role has been turned around, and they control the government. We the people have to beg for scraps from our employers; all in the name of "global competition".

We need another T. Roosevelt to take the power of corporations & their political puppets down a few notches, like he did with the railroads a century ago. Looking at both sides of the aisle, I ain't holdin' my breath.

C

 

[Huck]

I remember studying him in school, wondering why folks were excited enough about the issue to nickname a candidate "the Trustbuster."

What's the big deal about a huge corporate trust, I thought??

I'm forty, and my pension is still there, but it might as well go fishing with Fredo - it's dead to me.

 

[PurpleInMEM]

Right on Huck. I have been working with a financial planner for several years and our assumption is no pension. When I retire, hopefully at 60, if the pension system is still intact well then it's gravy, but counting on having that money is absurd.

Corporations exist to increase shareholder wealth...they serve no other purpose...to that end they will do whatever is necessary, often at the expense of loyal employees. Loyalty to any entity outside of one's own family in this environment is foolish. You will always lose. You will always have a position of weakness.

CEO's and the repugnant management that surround them can rule with impunity, because they truely have no stake in the decisions they make. Most posess a level of personal wealth that will support them and their families that the rest of us could only dream of, regardless of how bad their decisions are. When you run a company and the basis for your decisions doesn't lie in your own survival, your decisions can be reckless and can force, collectively, a lower standard of living on the very people generating the corporation's revenue.

There has to be an end game to this. Maybe not in my lifetime, but it will eventually reach the stage where people (finally) realize that 'we' outnumber 'them'. Then and only then will real changes be made in the government and in the way corporations can treat employees, especially with regard to financial security and benefits.

As much as I'm not a fan of Europe, their labor laws and laws of incorporation don't allow corporations to completely disregard the value of the employee.

 

[AA717driver]

I love how it's always the "other party's fault". Wake-the-F-up! Just about every single member of Congress is corrupt to a certain extent.

Whether it's Duke Cunningham taking Bentleys or Evan Bayh's wife sitting on several BOD's without the slightest shred of the necessary qualifications, corruption is pervasive within D.C. and, frankly, politics down to it's lowest level in our own towns. The Clintons have never had a real job in their lives (I don't count Hillary's time at the Rose Law Firm as a real job) yet they are worth hundreds of millions of dollars. On government pay? Same with just about any member of Congress who has been there for more than 10-15 years. They came in with modest personal wealth and they leave as multi-millionaires.

Draginass--It's not about Republicans or Democrats. It's about the "Elite Good ol' Boy Network"--The Ivy Leaguers who run our lives.

Look now at who is dragging their feet on immigration reform. It's BOTH parties! It chilled me to the bone when Bush spoke of a 'continental work force' that could ebb and flow wherever the jobs are.

Continental work force=no borders=no national soverignty=no U.S. Constitution or Bill of Rights.

A couple of years ago, I heard a stat that was also very chilling. Over half of the incoming freshman class at Yale were non-U.S. citizens. At first I thought this was affirmative action taken to an extreme. Now I realize it's expanding the Good-ol'-boy-network to the rest of the world. Why do you think Kofi Annan still keeps his job despite the rampant corruption in the U.N.? He's a graduate of M.I.T.--another elite East Coast school. He's in the club.

I never believed all that Council on Foreign Relations/Freemason/Bilderbergers/New World Order crap but an awful lot of the pieces of the puzzle are starting to fall into place.

Sorry for the rant.TC

 

[cynic]

It’s all part of the balance between socialism and capitalism.

If we have the government force wages and retirement benefits on corporations (throw in health insurance too) then the economy suffers (look to France for an example) and innovation is stifled.

If we just let capitalism go unfettered pretty soon Bill Gates owns the entire world and we all live in his rental houses making minimum wage.

What the extremes on both ends fail to see is that we need both. I don’t want my electricity cut off; ever. And I’m willing to pay a little more and have a little less innovation and competition in exchange for that so let’s socialize it. That’s why most utility companies are owned by the local municipalities. It’s socialized and it’s great. If you live in a neighborhood that runs at a loss because your neighbors steel power and don’t pay their bills you still get service. Thanks California for running the experiment on the deregulation of power!

But when I go to buy my car I want the Toyota that forces GM and Ford to get lean and mean and make a car worth a crap so here capitalism is my friend. That is until there is only one car company left; then lets have the government step in so prices don’t sky rocket whilst quality suffers.

We have a pretty good balance here and when things get out of wack; well we’ve got a great history of having the government or the people step up and fix things in the nick of time. Thanks to our ‘revolution’ that happens every 4 years.

Watch the Democrats take in all in the next election. It will take them 4 to 8 years to run things amuck and then the republicans will be back.


So does any of this apply to the airlines? Do we want socialized (regulated) airlines with predictable service and ticket prices at the cost of those $200.00 NY to LA bargain tickets? I think so becuase transportation is vital to the economy.

Right now the goverment won't let them fail (bail outs) and won't regulate routes and prices either so we in effect get the worst of capitalism and the worst of socialism in the industry.

 

[JohnDoe]

AA717driver beat me to it.

Until the citizens of this country wake up and realize that they are ALL a bunch of self-serving politicians that are only looking out for themselves and the special-interest groups that shovel money at them, things will never change and/or get better.

Neither party is any better for us "common-folk." Quit wasting time with the "my party is better than yours" crud.

 

[WhatsUpNow?]

I love how it's always the "other party's fault". Wake-the-F-up! Just about every single member of Congress is corrupt to a certain extent.

Whether it's Duke Cunningham taking Bentleys or Evan Bayh's wife sitting on several BOD's without the slightest shred of the necessary qualifications, corruption is pervasive within D.C. and, frankly, politics down to it's lowest level in our own towns. The Clintons have never had a real job in their lives (I don't count Hillary's time at the Rose Law Firm as a real job) yet they are worth hundreds of millions of dollars. On government pay? Same with just about any member of Congress who has been there for more than 10-15 years. They came in with modest personal wealth and they leave as multi-millionaires.

Draginass--It's not about Republicans or Democrats. It's about the "Elite Good ol' Boy Network"--The Ivy Leaguers who run our lives.

Look now at who is dragging their feet on immigration reform. It's BOTH parties! It chilled me to the bone when Bush spoke of a 'continental work force' that could ebb and flow wherever the jobs are.

Continental work force=no borders=no national soverignty=no U.S. Constitution or Bill of Rights.

A couple of years ago, I heard a stat that was also very chilling. Over half of the incoming freshman class at Yale were non-U.S. citizens. At first I thought this was affirmative action taken to an extreme. Now I realize it's expanding the Good-ol'-boy-network to the rest of the world. Why do you think Kofi Annan still keeps his job despite the rampant corruption in the U.N.? He's a graduate of M.I.T.--another elite East Coast school. He's in the club.

I never believed all that Council on Foreign Relations/Freemason/Bilderbergers/New World Order crap but an awful lot of the pieces of the puzzle are starting to fall into place.

Sorry for the rant.TC

Well Said!

 

[skykid]

Ditto on AA717 as well. What this country needs is a revolution - VOTER revolution. Throw all incumbents out, good and bad. Don't see it happening, but that is what we need.

Funny how immigration is an emergency now that Americans have finally had enough. Securing the borders and getting off the dependence on foreign oil should have been goals we attacked after 9/11 with the same intensity as the efforts made back in 1942-1945. But because the people WE send to Washington have a single vision - maintaining power - here we are 5 years later in a borderless, undefendable country hoping oil doesn't go to $100/barrel.

 

[Cobra]

Everybody here is hitting on some great key points. Unfortunately, nothing much is going to change as long as the typical American citizen remains as willfully ignorant and dogmatic as they are in terms of the political choices/votes they make concerning the issues that affect the middle class. We indeed live in an oligarchy and most certainly not a democracy.

Someone said it right, let's throw out the incumbent bums, start over and rewrite some clean law that doesn't soley benefit the rich. Trickle Down economics is a farce.

 

[Fallingbrick]

Unfortunately, nothing much is going to change as long as the typical American citizen remains as willfully ignorant and dogmatic as they are in terms of the political choices/votes they make concerning the issues that affect the middle class. We indeed live in an oligarchy and most certainly not a democracy.

Well said!

“In tonight’s news, corporate corruption and ethics scandals…"What!?! American Idol is on!!! Quick, change the channel…ahhh bliss!!!

 

[PurpleInMEM]

Ditto on AA717 as well. What this country needs is a revolution - VOTER revolution. Throw all incumbents out, good and bad. Don't see it happening, but that is what we need.

Nah...we need a 'real' revolution...kind of a reset, a do-over.

 

[Draginass]

Watching that show just about made me ill. Ill at many different levels.

That said, Dragin, I'm not saying I totally disagree with you but you must have missed the part where they say this M.O. has increasingly become the norm since the Fed Bankruptcy laws were re-written in 1978 to favor corporations.

Let me see, who was President then? Hmmm, I know it's here somewhere, I just had it......give me a second..... oh darn.... where'd it go? It must have fallen off my desk... who was that guy?......it must be here somewhere....

Yes, but Bush and the Republican courts have raised the level of abuse of that provision to an artform. Don't kid yourself. This is all about MONEY and who gets it . . . . i.e. forced transfer of wealth from the working man to the corporate and governmental elites. This dishonesty and corruption in government and corporate America is rampant.

 

[Plunder Hound]

What was this thread about? Some airline?

 

[Corona]

Everybody here is hitting on some great key points. Unfortunately, nothing much is going to change as long as the typical American citizen remains as willfully ignorant and dogmatic as they are in terms of the political choices/votes they make concerning the issues that affect the middle class. We indeed live in an oligarchy and most certainly not a democracy.

This quote pretty much seals it. I often go into tirades about the wilfull ignorance of the American voter.
I think the ruling oligarchy has never been more transparent, nor more malevolent, than it is right now in this country.

C

 

[WhiteCloud]

Some of the things that used to attract workers to companies are fast dissappearing. Job security, stability and pensions are all a thing of the past. Might not be a bad idea to pull up stakes at Corporation X and start your own company to run the way you see fit.

 

[AA717driver]

Some of the things that used to attract workers to companies are fast dissappearing. Job security, stability and pensions are all a thing of the past. Might not be a bad idea to pull up stakes at Corporation X and start your own company to run the way you see fit.

Right. I grew up in a home where my father had intense loyalty to his company. Why? Because his company had intense loyalty to the employees.

Now, I have no loyalty to my present company (or the one I might get recalled to, for that matter). If a better deal comes along, I'll take it. The carpetbagging CEO's have created a bunch of workers who have the same values as they do. I don't know if this will harm American business but I'm guessing it will.TC

 

[TraneOfThought]

That show scared the sh$t outta me. After watching frontline it made realize just how much these companies dont give a rat's @ss about you. To think that united costs about 400mil to operate while the workers gave 3.5 billion to save united while tilton smiles with his multimillion dollars retirement package. Sad part is that its not just the airlines but dayum near all these corporations are stepping over dollars pick up dimes. cheap @ss mu$$%@#!

 

[Big Duke Six]

For the record, I was "pinning" it on Carter only to illustrate Dragin's short (IMHO) sightedness. It is not one party or the other. I used to think it was just the Democrats, but Bush has changed the way I feel about politics nowadays. This country is being run into the ground for the sake of short-term profits.

Take PurpleInMem's quote:

Corporations exist to increase shareholder wealth...they serve no other purpose...to that end they will do whatever is necessary, often at the expense of loyal employees.

I don't believe that. At least, I don't want to believe it. I believe the reasons for their existence are manyfold (manifold?). I believe they exist to produce things at a profit, yes, but I believe it is the greed of the individuals in charge that causes the "at the expense of the employees" part.

I believe it is the people who think like the people Purple described who are the problem. (Wow, I just said that 3 times out loud and it was pretty funny...)

Anyway, not to drag this out but we also have to take blame for this, rather than laying it all on the feet of the politicos. We don't have to come to work. Not to flame anyone here, but this industry has had and will have many opportunities to put the brakes on Management abuse. Put these guys out of a job a few times and see what happens. Yes they have Golden Parachutes and blah blah blah, but if if every time a Glenn Tilton went to court to throw out pensions and he came back to find no one coming to work then I think Mgmt would have to re-think their strategy. It's a moot point now though, there is nothing left to save.

 

[vetteracer]

I love how it's always the "other party's fault". Wake-the-F-up! Just about every single member of Congress is corrupt to a certain extent.

Whether it's Duke Cunningham taking Bentleys or Evan Bayh's wife sitting on several BOD's without the slightest shred of the necessary qualifications, corruption is pervasive within D.C. and, frankly, politics down to it's lowest level in our own towns. The Clintons have never had a real job in their lives (I don't count Hillary's time at the Rose Law Firm as a real job) yet they are worth hundreds of millions of dollars. On government pay? Same with just about any member of Congress who has been there for more than 10-15 years. They came in with modest personal wealth and they leave as multi-millionaires.

Draginass--It's not about Republicans or Democrats. It's about the "Elite Good ol' Boy Network"--The Ivy Leaguers who run our lives.

Look now at who is dragging their feet on immigration reform. It's BOTH parties! It chilled me to the bone when Bush spoke of a 'continental work force' that could ebb and flow wherever the jobs are.

Continental work force=no borders=no national soverignty=no U.S. Constitution or Bill of Rights.

A couple of years ago, I heard a stat that was also very chilling. Over half of the incoming freshman class at Yale were non-U.S. citizens. At first I thought this was affirmative action taken to an extreme. Now I realize it's expanding the Good-ol'-boy-network to the rest of the world. Why do you think Kofi Annan still keeps his job despite the rampant corruption in the U.N.? He's a graduate of M.I.T.--another elite East Coast school. He's in the club.

I never believed all that Council on Foreign Relations/Freemason/Bilderbergers/New World Order crap but an awful lot of the pieces of the puzzle are starting to fall into place.

Sorry for the rant.TC

Well said indeed !
What will it take in this country to elect statesman into office?

 

[AA717driver]

Well said indeed !
What will it take in this country to elect statesman into office?

I don't believe we have any statesmen left. TC

 

[Corona]

I don't believe we have any statesmen left. TC

Second that.

C

 

[Corona]

For the record, I was "pinning" it on Carter only to illustrate Dragin's short (IMHO) sightedness. It is not one party or the other. I used to think it was just the Democrats, but Bush has changed the way I feel about politics nowadays. This country is being run into the ground for the sake of short-term profits.

Exactly. However, it should be no surprise that the government is so short-sighted, when considering the huge revolving door between government office and the private sector. It's the same crooks going back and forth. The stupid American corporate mentality has infected our government.

Anyway, not to drag this out but we also have to take blame for this, rather than laying it all on the feet of the politicos. We don't have to come to work.

Yep, again. We still elect our leaders, however contaminated the system has become. We get the government we deserve.

C

 

[G4G5]

This is an absolute must watch: It takes around 5 minutes to get to the UAL stuff in part 1

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/retirement/view/1_hi.html

Part 2 is dedicated to UAL (and explains part of the reason why I think Tilton is the biggest piece of trash in this industry)

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/retirement/view/2_hi.html

Just 2 more months before Tilton and the UAL managers can start to cash in their stock options.

 

[Draginass]

For the record, I was "pinning" it on Carter only to illustrate Dragin's short (IMHO) sightedness. It is not one party or the other. I used to think it was just the Democrats, but Bush has changed the way I feel about politics nowadays. This country is being run into the ground for the sake of short-term profits.

Take PurpleInMem's quote:



I don't believe that. At least, I don't want to believe it. I believe the reasons for their existence are manyfold (manifold?). I believe they exist to produce things at a profit, yes, but I believe it is the greed of the individuals in charge that causes the "at the expense of the employees" part.

I believe it is the people who think like the people Purple described who are the problem. (Wow, I just said that 3 times out loud and it was pretty funny...)

Anyway, not to drag this out but we also have to take blame for this, rather than laying it all on the feet of the politicos. We don't have to come to work. Not to flame anyone here, but this industry has had and will have many opportunities to put the brakes on Management abuse. Put these guys out of a job a few times and see what happens. Yes they have Golden Parachutes and blah blah blah, but if if every time a Glenn Tilton went to court to throw out pensions and he came back to find no one coming to work then I think Mgmt would have to re-think their strategy. It's a moot point now though, there is nothing left to save.

I don't disagree with you. The Democrats are just as venal and corrupt as the Republicans. My point is that Republicans are in-charge now and have allowed the corporate elite in this country virtually a free rein as long as it's kept out of the news.