Frontier Pilots "What Do You Think?"

[Rez O. Lewshun]

This is all about market share, nothing more.

Correct... SWA doesn't need pilots... they want the routes... meaning the market...

 

[Speedtape]

Correct... SWA doesn't need pilots... they want the routes... meaning the market...

Your are partially right. With the amount of flying they would acquire, SWA would need additional staffing. Where that comes from is the question.

 

[Donald]

You're right. There isn't a single similarity is there. SWA isn't interested in eliminating competition in Denver.

I don't ever remember SWA offering to bid on ATA (as a whole company) or have labor group negotiations with them.

 

[Donald]

F9 guys, Plenty of SWA haters out there that are going to paint a picture of doom and gloom for you guys. I've always been impressed with your operation and look forward to working with you.

BTW, I know some of you guys may miss the automation of the bus, but all of our 700's now have the auto throttles turned on. By the time you transition, we should be using them for everything except autoland. Problem is were getting spoiled and dread climbing into a 300. But, we have started retiring and replacing them with new 700's.

 

[WNFO]

Southwest is going to operate A319/320's now? I would be surprised if they did. If they do not plan on operating the Bus then why would they take the F9 pilots? I have a lot of friends at F9 but I am afraid this isn't going to be pretty. ATA all over again.

No SWA is not going to operate A319/320's. But they do say as they retire 1 Airbus it will be replaced with a 737. I do not believe we are that over staffed on pilots, every month I am on reserve I fly my ass off! Just as much as a line holder if not more. Maybe fat on Capt's but not FO's.

 

[Cometman]

Some people here think that Allegheny+McCaskill will provide us with a fair and equitable integration under the law. I have far less than 100% faith that this is the case. As a 3 1/2 year guy, yet still in the bottom sixth of the entire list, even a pay protected staple reaps a whirlwind for me. And the prosepct of some sort of DEN base protection is even better.
I have nothing but the highest respect for the SWAPA pilots and understand that they will fight to protect what they have earned and created, just as we are trying to do. If only the outcome of all of this were up to us. We could all meet at Mr. C's and have this thing hashed out. But its not. Its up to Management and a judge named Drain. And they share the common primary goal of doing whats best for the bottom line. This, along with past Southwest acquisitions, is why my distrust of the deal is so strong, not any ounce of disrespect for fellow pilots. The most regrettable actions in our profession these days is the misdirected hostility of pilot to pilot anger. How often does any of the shyte that we put up with have roots in a decision a fellow pilot made?
The prospect of survivng these times and coming out on the other side as a part of an airline like Southwest seems almost too good to be true. And if it seems too good to be true, it almost always is. Absent some binding agreement betwen our unions this week, or some final 'pro-labor' slant by Drain as part of the deal, I think my days are seriously numbered.

If all the other F9 pilots think like you then this will happen. I agree with every thing you said. The Denver Base should be locked until all the aircraft are switched to the 737.

 

[starchkr]

F9 guys, Plenty of SWA haters out there that are going to paint a picture of doom and gloom for you guys. I've always been impressed with your operation and look forward to working with you.

BTW, I know some of you guys may miss the automation of the bus, but all of our 700's now have the auto throttles turned on. By the time you transition, we should be using them for everything except autoland. Problem is were getting spoiled and dread climbing into a 300. But, we have started retiring and replacing them with new 700's.

Automation is nice...I don't think i would know how to fly anymore without A/T though. Not using them for autoland either huh, seems like that would be more of what they are designed for...there's my bus training coming into play. Can we put in a request to get the control column removed and a nice sidestick put in so i can keep all my wonderful legroom and my nice table? That i would miss. Oh well, beggars can't be choosers.

 

[Vegaspilot99]

Good luck with that! I bet all the lynx guys are licking their chops waiting on a Swa number!

LOL...you know it. We can dream can't we?

 

[Vegaspilot99]

Is Lynx wholly-owned?

Yup...wholly-owned part of Frontier Airline Holdings. Just like Frontier.

 

[ABC123]

AA/TWA all over again

 

[Tristar]

I feel for you ATA guys. I always liked your airline and it was a shame it went out of business, however, your dealings at SWA were at a much different part of the BK process than the phase Frontier is currently in.

Frontier chose to file BK due to the credit card processor demanding 100% holdback due to the failure of carriers such as ATA and Aloha.

This was one of the major factors that put ATA into BK the first time. Granted, ATA did have other problems, but that as I recall that was the straw that broke the camel's back.

(In hindsight they would have probably had to file anyway last summer due to full exposure to $147/bbl oil). In any event, they have successfully reorganized and have become a super efficient operation with a cult-like following of loyal customers. They are profitable both from an operating standpoint and on a net basis. Being in bankruptcy (for them) at this point is expensive and provides no other benefit.

HP/TZ probably woulld have provided a similar outcome, and TZ did have a loyal customer base in our hometown. Unfortunately, we'll never know since WN blackmailed Boeing to kill the deal.

So at this juncture F9 is seeking a plan sponsor or "exit financing" (very much different than ther ATA scenerio). In a normal credit environment F9 would attract investment grade capital to achieve this goal, unfortunately for them, there isn't any. RAH has provided an offer to fund this exit plan. BK allows for better offers to be considered before approving the exit plan.

You are correct - we HAD the financing arranged until WN killed the deal.

Now enters SWA. They (SWA) do want to eliminate a competitor and want to prevent a tough competitor from becoming very healthy with a strong balance sheet. They look at F9 and see themselves 20 years ago and it probably scares them a bit, so why not nip it in the bud and just buy them. Remember, they didn't buy ATA nor did they bid on them in a similar process. The law requires that if a company buys more than 50 percent of the company they are required to take the labor. Its all or nothing. If not, Frontier will exit and compete vigorously with the other offer that is on the table. So, I see how you ATA guys can draw parallels but there really aren't any in a true business sense.

Trust me, we are all too familiar with that aspect. They want to eliminate a competitor and will stop at nothing to do so.

They didn't buy ATA initially. Since WN showed up late to the dance, they scuttled the HP/TZ deal. They then inserted John Dennison (who almost makes Lorenzo look like an honest man) to cherry pick ATA's best routes, leaving ATA with crap. Finally, when the manufactured collapse was complete, they bought the shell of the company to get the gates they wanted at LGA.

It's a different day, and a different victim. Hopefully for F9 guys the outcome will be better, but based on what I've heard on here and other forums from WN pilots, I wouldn't bet on it.

In retrospect, I wish we'd burned ATA to the ground during the first BK. It would have been better than the ongoing rape we were subjected to for the next 3+ years. Unfortunately, we trusted WN - and look where it got us.

 

[Capn Butthead]

Im sorry that ATA went away. I hate seeing people on the street.....I really do. Ive been there. I had friends at ATA and it sucked seeing them go....But WE DID NOT BUY ATA!!!!! We purchased gates, slots, and etc. Its apples and oranges...Maybe we could see the writing on the wall and knew that ATA was going to lose the contracts with the military and the overall loss of revenue. ATA going away also hurt us. Losing the Hawaii codeshare took a lot of revenue from us also. I hated to see them go. But, we did not buy you and we did not pursue any merger. It was never mentioned or brought up. The frontier thing is a different thing.

 

[Tristar]

Im sorry that ATA went away. I hate seeing people on the street.....I really do. Ive been there. I had friends at ATA and it sucked seeing them go....But WE DID NOT BUY ATA!!!!! We purchased gates, slots, and etc. Its apples and oranges...Maybe we could see the writing on the wall and knew that ATA was going to lose the contracts with the military and the overall loss of revenue. ATA going away also hurt us. Losing the Hawaii codeshare took a lot of revenue from us also. I hated to see them go. But, we did not buy you and we did not pursue any merger. It was never mentioned or brought up. The frontier thing is a different thing.

While there are certainly differences in the two proposals, you did in fact own 40% (if I recall correctly) of ATA at one point in time, which permitted the installation of John "Rot in Hell you swine" Dennison, which permitted the gradual dismantling of ATA, ad infinitum. Having our best routes cherry picked was the major cause of the loss of revenue. FedEx's stunt pushed it over the top.

I would hope that WN didn't know TZ was going to lose contracts with the military. If they did, that would certainly be some good info to add to our lawsuit against FedEx.