Frontier pay cuts?

[HalinTexas]

Say NO!

Look at ATA's history since 2004.

We gave one concession before the first BK. A little more after the BK in Jan. '05. An 1113(e) was filed for temporary relief to continue the concessions then the 1113(c) was filed. This basically abrogated our contract for three years. We shut down before that contract was amendable.

I gave over $250,000 back to Matlin-Patterson during this time. I was downgraded to FO. I was just beginning to make the income I was making in 2003 right before I upgraded!

Don't give them anything! Make them fight for it!

Save your money, pay off debt (I got mine paid off before we shut down, and I had lots in savings!), get yourself ready for a change of job or career, but keep that money you've earned so far.

There is no guarantee that they won't come back for more in an 1113(c) filing. There's also no guarantee you'll stay in business. Look at ATA and Aloha.

 

[USMC319]

I agree with some of that fellas, but here is the deal. Take a pay cut and keep a relatively good contract in place or take the same pay cut and lose all your work rules as a bonus prize. Remember, a 1113e only takes 10 days, so be careful. The Plan-B advice is great. I have been recommending that to all pilots in this industry for years. But giving advice on a union vote of another carrier is worthless.

 

[reepicheep]

My favorite is "if you just give us these pay cuts then Wall St. will be happy and all the banks will be happy and the hedge fund managers will be happy and we'll keep all these airplanes and jobs and this is the last time no we really mean it this time..."

 

[USMC319]

My favorite is "if you just give us these pay cuts then Wall St. will be happy and all the banks will be happy and the hedge fund managers will be happy and we'll keep all these airplanes and jobs and this is the last time no we really mean it this time..."

I don't think you will hear this promise from anyone in this environment. I know F9 mgt is not promising these things at least. They are being very real and up front. If you hear these things from YOUR management then you know you are being duped.

 

[D-Bo]

I agree with some of that fellas, but here is the deal. Take a pay cut and keep a relatively good contract in place or take the same pay cut and lose all your work rules as a bonus prize. Remember, a 1113e only takes 10 days, so be careful. The Plan-B advice is great. I have been recommending that to all pilots in this industry for years. But giving advice on a union vote of another carrier is worthless.

EDIT: I didn't realize reepicheep made this point in his reply to you already.



Realize this. If your group votes to take a paycut now that does not mean they won't come back for more later. They can even send it to a judge later. There is usually more than one push for concessions in a bankruptcy. Managements key is to take as much from you as you are possibly willing to give away. And when you aren't willing to give any more, they look for ways to take it away from you. That's how it's played time after time.

About your work rules, some of them are good. You could loose the premium pay above 82. They will come after it especially if you give away 14.5%. They figure if they can take that pay away from you then they won't have to worry about paying a premium above 82. Everyone will have to work more hours anyway.

As far as splitting trips and pretty good trip trading, that benefits the group of pilots of there but all in all, it is at the very worst manpower neutral for the company. I don't think they'd come after that. I can't think of too many provisions work rule wise that are actually manpower positive over there. But if you can think of one, expect them to target it.

 

[AnimalTale]

I hate to say this:

There are only TWO GUARANTEES:

1) The pilots get a pay cut, whether imposed or voted in.

2) MNGMT gets a Severance package no matter what.


WTF why do we always allow this to happen? Who would even want our managers?

CYA

 

[F9 Buff]

I love F9 and I hope things turn around quick but you guys have to remember that the folks over at the GO don't have jobs that rely on a seniority list. If things aren't working out and doom and gloom is on the horizon what reason do they have to stay when they could easily move on to another company? They don't have to start over on reserve after buying a type rating on their own dime then be the junior guy until the next upswing in the economy.

If not for the "golden parachute" most of them would be gone asap to greener pastures and Frontier would be in about as good of shape as the next flight to LAX if both pilots bailed out in flight with the cockpit door locked and barricaded.

The situation sucks, but to me this just points out another reason why pilots need a national seniority list. Wouldn't really help F9 or any airline survive but I am sure it would be nice to know that if your company goes under, you can continue your career instead of starting it over again... Anyway, that is another topic for another day.

I'll keep pulling for you guys... Hopefully some good news happens soon!

 

[waveflyer]

either an NSL or just set some standards and let us compete for openings like everyone else in the world--
when do ya'll vote anyway? i'm pulling for you...

 

[GuppyWN]

USMC319,

Your management isn't being competely "up front" with you. Just a few weeks ago you were filing CH 11 only because the credit card company was screwing you over.

Gup

 

[skystud25]

USMC319,

Your management isn't being competely "up front" with you. Just a few weeks ago you were filing CH 11 only because the credit card company was screwing you over.

Gup

Just a guess, but the F9 guys might not want to be hearing too much advice or otherwise from WN folks right now.

 

[PCL_128]

Voting was supposed to close yesterday. Anyone know what the results were?

 

[waveflyer]

Just a guess, but the F9 guys might not want to be hearing too much advice or otherwise from WN folks right now.

what? you think the pilots had anything to do w/ it? The $180/hour is undercuttting frontier?

Management loves it when we fight each other instead of the real issues....

 

[skystud25]

what? you think the pilots had anything to do w/ it? The $180/hour is undercuttting frontier?

Management loves it when we fight each other instead of the real issues....

No, I'm sure they don't blame the pilots, but since we as employees are the company, indirectly, there may be some resentment. Have a read on this, freshly posted by AnimalTale (F9 guy) regarding the WN announcement today on additional Denver flying. Looks like I might be right...

"We will continue to grow in Denver as it is a major focal point for us, and the market is responding exceptionally well to our service," said Southwest Airlines CEO Gary Kelly.

AWESOME! Guys, enjoy your success.

You will successfully drive Ual out of Denver, put F9 out of business and now you will OWN DENVER.

Congrats, now finally, you can raise the fares because you are the only player in town.

Btw, the $39 fares and "kids fly free" campaign is genius. You guys have the BEST management. Sleep well tonight knowing, you guys are the "NEW SKYGODS" in the USA.

CYA"

Yeah, I'd say they'd rather not hear too much from SW pilots right now. I'm not saying that's the right way to think, but there you are.

 

[Colonel Savage]

Just a few weeks ago you were filing CH 11 only because the credit card company was screwing you over.

Jet fuel being up about 15% more since then may not be a problem for you, Gup, but it is for us more "mortal" airline pilots.

Enjoy sleeping well for now, Gup, as futures have a way of becoming uncertian very quickly in this business, Gup.

 

[GuppyWN]

Step off Colonel.

I'm ex F9 - under the "original" leadership and proud of it. I have been vocally unimpressed with Potter and thought Menke was trying to play nice but the credit card imposed CH 11 and now asking for a paycut while implementing a 9 month severence is over the top.

I'm not going to let you smack talk me without a response. I've got a boat load of friends at F9 that have given blood, sweat and now tears for that company. They stuck around because it was a great company with a bright future. Made sacrifices because they were family. Now the "family" is taking care of themselves and dumping the kids off at the orphanage.

Feel free to respond, jacka$$.
Gup