Frontier Owned By Republic - Question For Delta Pilots

GRAAB HIRBOUBI

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Yesterday while waiting in line for TO at MSP, I found myself watching a Frontier A319 and a bunch of NWA DC-9's and it got me wondering.

Back in XJ history (before me), XJ used profits from the NWA service agreement to buy a small charter company in Orlando, which operated 737's. Within a few days NWA came to XJ and threatened to pull all the flying because they were not going to subsidize the competition. The people who owned XJ basically sold XJ (to people who were huge stock holders in NWA) and went to Orlando where they were eventually bought by Value Jet and turned into the Air Tran we all know today.

My question is, now that we are all in the one big happy Delta Family, can we look forward to more and bigger jets at XJ? I mean if Republic can do flying for Delta, use that money to prop up US Air, buy Midwest and Frontier which are all cheaper and directly compete with Delta... I mean why not keep they money in the family at least.

Are the wholly owns that much of an enemy that the Delta Main line company and DALPA MEC are all right with 90 to 100+ seat aircraft being subsidized with our paycuts (I took mine too) and used to compete with us?

Just to be clear...
I don't care that we are wholly owned, we are subcontractor and subject to the whims of the mainline.

I did not support the RJDC and do not think we are entitled to anything. But I do think that only the mainline DALPA can protected/stop the bloodletting by the constant whipsawing between the different regional partners. If safety and on time performance were real measures I'd feel pretty content.

I need someone to explain this to me. I know the NWA MEC would have chased after Republic with torches and pitchforks, and then taken a swipe at us just to keep us from getting any idea's. The Compass issue just voted on CAN'T be as overwelmingly important as the THREAT Republic is to all of us.

I need someone to explain this to me.
 

RedDogC130

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are you saying you think you should be integrated into Delta?
 

GRAAB HIRBOUBI

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No, not at all.
I certainly see the benefits to us at the regional's on being on one list but I just don't see mainline giving anything up to get us on one list. They have nothing to gain.

What I am saying is I don't understand how mainline can keep us penned in on scope (which I completely agree with and understand) so vigorously while allowing a contracted regional that does supply some Delta lift (increasing with the Midwest flying that NWA used to have access to) that is being paid with in part from money Republic got from Delta flying. And Frontier is competing with us.
 
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Caveman

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Let's say Delta was a construction company and they bought building supplies from Republic. Could they stop Republic from selling building supplies to another construction company that was in direct competition with Delta? Conversely, can Republic stop Delta from buying some of their supplies from Skywest? Of course not. OTOH, Delta can stop Comair from selling insulation to the competition because they own Comair. This is a simplistic analogy, but it represents the same situation. I don't know why pilots think the airline business is different from other businesses.

The whole point of the DCI portfolio was to spread the lift around so any one carrier (ala Comair) couldn't again seriously affect the operation. It also enables an ongoing whipsaw between the regional affiliates that are competing for the flying. In theory the Delta MEC could ask/negotiate/demand that Delta not do business with Republic. Good luck with that.
 
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GRAAB HIRBOUBI

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Let's say Delta was a construction company and they bought building supplies from Republic. Could they stop Republic from selling building supplies to another construction company that was in direct competition with Delta? Conversely, can Republic stop Delta from buying some of their supplies from Skywest? Of course not. OTOH, Delta can stop Comair from selling insulation to the competition because they own Comair. This is a simplistic analogy, but it represents the same situation. I don't know why pilots think the airline business is different from other businesses.

The whole point of the DCI portfolio was to spread the lift around so any one carrier (ala Comair) couldn't again seriously affect the operation. It also enables an ongoing whipsaw between the regional affiliates that are competing for the flying. In theory the Delta MEC could ask/negotiate/demand that Delta not do business with Republic. Good luck with that.
Coming from the NWA side, I accurately described what happened. And yes it could happen there called Non-Compete Clauses.

I don't have a problem with diversification. What I don't understand is the appearance of the MEC giving Delta the ability to take jobs away from them by directly competing with Frontier while subsidizing the same company by contracting with Republic for Delta lift.

Heck we are parking SAAB's (which are profitable) and furloughing like mad. We had scope that eventually killed TWO companies. I don't understand how they can be more afraid of a us, a wholly owned with 76 seat jets than a 90 (they just bought more EMB190's a well established mainline aircraft) or 110+ seat Airbus's operating at a company that has both a subsidiary that provides lift (which competes with us) and another subsidiary that directly competes with mainline.

I know the NWA guys must be going absolutely nuts about this, cause if they aren't the past 15 years of ruthless beatings Mesaba has taken from both the Company and the MEC were just fun sport.
 
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StaySeated

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Disclaimer, I am in NO way praising my new boss. He is what he is.

RAH does not have any agreements or contracts with DAL, or UAL, or anybody.

Republic, one of several certificates within Republic Airlines Holdings (RAH), has an agreement with DAL.

Shuttle America, another certificate within RAH, has an agreement with UAL.

Chautauqua, another certificate within RAH, has an agreement with other airlines.

There is no violation of any "non-compete clause". Each certificate is complying with each of their agreements. The fact that each certificate is wholly owned by the same Holding company is irrelevant.
 

Indy319FA

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Actually the Republic certificate has agreements with US Airways, Midwest, and Frontier.

Shuttle America has agreements with Delta and United.

Chautauqua has agreements with American, US Airways, Delta, Continental, and United.
 

aa73

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OK people, can we PLEASE start using full airline names and not airline codes? I'm guessing that XJ is some kind of Delta Connection but last I checked, Express Jet stopped the Delta flying a while ago.

If it's not immediately obvious, could we use the full airline name? Makes for easier reading.

Thanks,
73
 

GRAAB HIRBOUBI

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I don't disagree about anything you guys are saying about what certificates are where. I honestly don't know.
XJ = Mesaba

My issue is not even with Republic or whomever is the holding company. People who drive the planes have no control over what management does. And my only complaint on the Republic side is over the complete shut down of the original Midwest. We all should be scared.

My issue is how the Delta side of DALPA can get worked up about such a non-issue like Compass, but not even appear to notice that a subcontractor has subsidiary's that both feed and compete with mainline jobs. I know, all who fly RJ's are scum - but these guys are flying EMB190's and Airbus. I know CRJ900's are terrifying to job security but I think I am missing something.

I really hope the DALPA guys are just working quietly on a strategy cause if not, no scope will be worth anything.
 

Monster Buck

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FWIW, Delta gave BB the go ahead thumbs up before he did anything otherwise it never would have happened. Why, I am sure there is something in it for them, I just don't know what. DALPA do something about it.....you mean Lee Delta Moak? Funny
 

crj567

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Disclaimer, I am in NO way praising my new boss. He is what he is.

RAH does not have any agreements or contracts with DAL, or UAL, or anybody.

Republic, one of several certificates within Republic Airlines Holdings (RAH), has an agreement with DAL.

Shuttle America, another certificate within RAH, has an agreement with UAL.

Chautauqua, another certificate within RAH, has an agreement with other airlines.

There is no violation of any "non-compete clause". Each certificate is complying with each of their agreements. The fact that each certificate is wholly owned by the same Holding company is irrelevant.
Yeah, right...

If this were the case, why was "ASA Holdings" (I know-it didn't exist, but easily could have with $27 and a call to Legal Zoom) not allowed to buy 737s, or even buy ValueJet entirely -and just hold them as a "wholly-owned subsidiary?" They of course could have competed directly against DAL in ATL.

I understand that something in the scope clause specifically prevented this from happening-although I am not privy to the specifics. My understanding of DCI scope is that it normally attaches similar restrictions to the parent company to those which are attached to the specfic subsidiary which does the contract work. It really would pointless to do otherwise.

-I have no idea how DAL is putting up with the crap RAH is pulling.
 
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pb1900

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Let's say Delta was a construction company and they bought building supplies from Republic. Could they stop Republic from selling building supplies to another construction company that was in direct competition with Delta? Conversely, can Republic stop Delta from buying some of their supplies from Skywest? Of course not. OTOH, Delta can stop Comair from selling insulation to the competition because they own Comair. This is a simplistic analogy, but it represents the same situation. I don't know why pilots think the airline business is different from other businesses.

The whole point of the DCI portfolio was to spread the lift around so any one carrier (ala Comair) couldn't again seriously affect the operation. It also enables an ongoing whipsaw between the regional affiliates that are competing for the flying. In theory the Delta MEC could ask/negotiate/demand that Delta not do business with Republic. Good luck with that.
Hit the nail on the head. Excellent comparrison.
 

jayme

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IMy issue is how the Delta side of DALPA can get worked up about such a non-issue like Compass, but not even appear to notice that a subcontractor has subsidiary's that both feed and compete with mainline jobs.
I agree with you 100 percent. However, it appears that you didn't go to college, or even do well in high school. That leads readers to assume you don't know what you're talking about... which discredits your (valid) argument. Please... learn when to use apostrophes.
 

CesnaCaptn

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I agree with you 100 percent. However, it appears that you didn't go to college, or even do well in high school. That leads readers to assume you don't know what you're talking about... which discredits your (valid) argument. Please... learn when to use apostrophes.
You figured out that the OP "didn't go to college, or even do well in high school," from a few posts on FI? Amazing!
 

CesnaCaptn

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Let's say Delta was a construction company and they bought building supplies from Republic. Could they stop Republic from selling building supplies to another construction company that was in direct competition with Delta? Conversely, can Republic stop Delta from buying some of their supplies from Skywest? Of course not. OTOH, Delta can stop Comair from selling insulation to the competition because they own Comair. This is a simplistic analogy, but it represents the same situation. I don't know why pilots think the airline business is different from other businesses.
I disagree. Different businesses sign exclusivity agreements all the time. Last I checked, which it's been a while, Delta has an exclusivity agreement with Coke. I'm willing to bet Delta couldn't add Mountain Dew to it's offerings without consulting with, or altering their agreement with Coke.
 

PeanuckleCRJ

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DL does not have an exclusivity agreement with RAH holdings (the lift contracts are with shuttle america and chaniqua). Republic and F9 are currently still being operated as separate certificates- they will likely not be combined.

Straight from the horse's mouth, DL has a legal obligation to continue their relationship at least to the end of the contract.... now if it's renewed is a whole nother conversation.
 

ACL65PILOT

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See, your desire, to fly these "Big" RJ's is an advantage to management. The see this, and will "offer" to give you the flying if you under cut someone else. When that other airline undercuts you, they will come back to you and ask for more. See where this is going?
 

andyd

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I think it's high time for Dalpa to adopt the APA's stance on Scope. Period, end of conversation. If it says Delta on the ticket or anywhere on the side of the plane...then it is flown my mainline DAL pilots. If we have to give up widebody pay raises for a contract cycle then so be it....if not, within 10 years the only jobs left at mainline will be widebody's...until they find a way to outsource those as well....ala UAL/Air Lingus hocus pocus.
 

JoeMerchant

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See, your desire, to fly these "Big" RJ's is an advantage to management. The see this, and will "offer" to give you the flying if you under cut someone else. When that other airline undercuts you, they will come back to you and ask for more. See where this is going?
We see where this is going...Same place it's been going for the past 20+ years...Nothing new here folks...

As to our "desire to fly these "Big" RJs", that needs some clarification...I want to fly what ever improves my paycheck, and more importantly my QOL...If that means flying a J3 Cub, then sign me up...It was ALPA that decided that bigger airplanes somehow demand more pay.

Many of your colleagues at Delta and the other mainlines are guilty of the Shiny Big Jets Syndrome (SBJS)....There are plenty of Gen. Lees out there that just can't wait to fly a big widebody to Paris...Personally, I would rather have an ATR overnight at the Hilton Head Westin resort...

Yes ACL...We see where this is headed.....
 
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