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Frontier orders A320s & more A318s

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Any new info/guesses on the F9 holding company that was announced a couple of weeks ago? Strictly an accounting move, or something more sinister to it?
 
Well, we know they are not getting any E-jets which was a rumor I have heard for a while. Potter nixed that one.

And it looks like they will be hiring till at least 2011 so that is good news!

I am still wondering if this holding company doesn't give them the ability to buy Great Lakes or create their own regional that lets them be Colorado's airline instead of Denver's airline. A dozen Q400s would take care of Colorado and a few surrounding states pretty easily!

The 320 has been rumored for ever, nice to see it will be arriving soon!
 
F9 Buff said:
I am still wondering if this holding company doesn't give them the ability to buy Great Lakes or create their own regional that lets them be Colorado's airline instead of Denver's airline. A dozen Q400s would take care of Colorado and a few surrounding states pretty easily!
Click to expand...

I kind of wonder about just such a scenario and how QX/Jet Express might be involved/impacted, if at all. But it doesn't seem to be raising any eyebrows, except yours and mine.

How does it go: just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get you.
 
Well the deal with Horizon was for 10 years and I think it is a little over 2 years old now. It works well too, and doesn't really serve closer markets that a Frontier regional would serve. QX does more of low density short to mid range stuff. I think they make it down to Austin if I remember correctly? If they bought Lakes and/or added Q400s, they could serve the mountain towns and all of the other Colorado/border state towns that Lakes serves. Could make a killing during ski season and if they bought Lakes and the EAS cities came with it, that would only help with the finances. Perhaps they could even make the Springs into a focus city?

I have always wondered if they were to buy Great Lakes, would all those contracts with the EAS cities come with it? I have heard many times that the EAS cities are the reason why Lakes never expands/changes their operation.
 
F9 Buff said:
Well, we know they are not getting any E-jets which was a rumor I have heard for a while. Potter nixed that one.

And it looks like they will be hiring till at least 2011 so that is good news!...

The 320 has been rumored for ever, nice to see it will be arriving soon!
Click to expand...

Don’t forget the out clause!.!.!....:nuts:

I wonder why?.?.?.?

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/060222/law109.html?.v=34

"The new order is subject to confirmation by Frontier on March 31, 2006. Should Frontier choose not to proceed with the new order, the purchase agreement will revert to the eight existing A319 aircraft orders."
 
F9 Buff said:
So do you think they are going to go through with it or will they opt out? Any news from the inside?
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All indications are that they will go through with it. I think they will end up with a lot more than 70 airplanes by 2011. That is just the basic plan.
 
Congrats on increasing the bus fleet....I've flown on Frontier several times and have nothing but praise for their service.....like seeing the A319 term each night in ATL too
 
Question for F9

Any F9er's out there: First of all, congratulations on getting more/bigger aircraft, you guys/gals have definitely earned it. I've always enjoyed jumpseating on you guys and I've managed to convert my folks into flying you over UAL. I do have a question though about your TV's. Is there anyway to turn them off individually or per row? Last time I flew F9 it was at night and there was a lot of light from those TV's. Not that it bothered me, as my favorite recent invention is the sleep timer on the TV at home (can't fall asleep without it on), but I can see how it might bother some passengers. Thanks in advance for any responses and good luck with the growth. Hopefully someday I can be a part of it.

-Blucher
 
Ah yes

F9 Buff,

Thanks for the answer. Last time I flew on them I was so tired I just immediately fell asleep, so I didn't even look for a dimmer on the TV (as I said, I personally like using the TV as a sort of night light to fall asleep to). Just started thinking about it after I got off the flight and was wondering if F9 gets any complaints from pax who don't like the light of their neighbor while on a night flight.

-Blucher
 
The announcement is growth, but not a whole bunch. The six 320's are new orders but the other 4 320's and 4 318's are actually 8 converted 319 orders. Changing 8 319's into 4 320's and 4 318's is a net increase of around 20 seats. I understand that a 320 is a better match when competing against southwest and ted, so it is a good thing. The out clause is a source of concern for the pessimist in me, with contract negotiations going on and a opt out date of march 31st I can see the company putting the pressure on big time in the form of concessions for growth. I am still a very happy camper, I just break out in a cold sweat any time I see the term "right-sizing" being used, even if the context here is different than at my previous big-top.
 
StaySeated,

Yeah, tell them to raise the ticket prices if they want more money... I just scored a RT from DEN to DCA and back for $216 in a few weeks. That is crazy cheap and I am sure they could charge more for that.

By the way, if you are interested in an 8x10 of that photo in your avitar, drop me a line. I have not restrocked the GO in a while but I have some left over.
 
Re: more A318s...

I've never quite understood the economics of the A318 vs. the A319, and was a little surprised when F9 opted to buy some. Always seemed to my gray matter that the 318 is basically dragging around almost as much airframe as the 319...but with less seats. Why fly less seats (the real commodity we're all in this business to sell) for virtually the same cost? My views are admittedly clouded by SWA's experience with the 737-500. Originally bought for performance reasons (which it failed to live up to), I'm sure that today if SWA could wave a magic wand, they would turn all 25 of them into -300s for the extra revenue capability and fleet commonality. Anyone have some insight into F9's decision to go with (and now more of) the A318?
 
F9 Buff said:
Yeah, tell them to raise the ticket prices if they want more money... I just scored a RT from DEN to DCA and back for $216 in a few weeks. That is crazy cheap and I am sure they could charge more for that.
Click to expand...

They could until Southwest came to town.
 
StopNTSing said:
They could until Southwest came to town.
Click to expand...

That's the thing, wal-mart doesn't fly from DEN to DCA though. I could see F9 dropping their BWI fares to keep on par, and they have... Last month I saved about $120 flying DEN to BWI on F9 rather than DEN-DCA. The thing that sucks for me is I live about 300 yards from DCA so I have to metro it in when I take the BWI route.

As for 318vs19. I remember the 18 was alot lighter than the 19. On those flights that just barely book over 100 pax the 18 is perfect and F9 had a fair amount of those when I was there. Loading bags and cargo on that thing is a pain though and trying to plan the load can be annoying too if you have alot of bags and you want to keep it in trim.

Also, probably the big factor was the price. I am sure they got a good deal on the 318.
 
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StopNTSing said:
I've never quite understood the economics of the A318 vs. the A319, and was a little surprised when F9 opted to buy some. quote]

Originally the A-318 order was based on P&W engines instead of the CFM, which was supposed to increase the efficiency a great deal. Unfortunately the P&W engine solution never materialized and F9 had to take delivery of the A-318s with CFM power.

The A-318 is marginally more efficient than the A-319 but not enough to justify losing 18 seats. Frontier was the launch customer for the A-318 so I assume the are getting them for next to nothing. But I think it really boils down to the numbers game (load factor); If they have a market that only averages 80 PAX, they can't justify a CRJ700 and turn people away, but they don't want to lower their numbers by running 50 empty seats either with a A-319. My 2 cents.
Click to expand...
 
F9 got the A318 reeeeeel cheap. TWA was intended to be the North American launch customer for the aircraft, but thanks to AMR that never happened. Airbus scrambled to move these things after Tdub went TU and F9 bit. They pretty much fly like $hit but they were a good value and they have tremendous range for a narrow body AC. It's all about money.....like everything else!
 
Congrats Frontier! I always fly you guys when I have the choice, even when it costs more. I've been so satisfied that I recommend you guys to any of my friends flying into CO. Another F9 passenger looking forward to you blowing away southwest in Denver.
 
StopNTSing said:
I've never quite understood the economics of the A318 vs. the A319, and was a little surprised when F9 opted to buy some. Always seemed to my gray matter that the 318 is basically dragging around almost as much airframe as the 319...but with less seats. Why fly less seats (the real commodity we're all in this business to sell) for virtually the same cost? My views are admittedly clouded by SWA's experience with the 737-500. Originally bought for performance reasons (which it failed to live up to), I'm sure that today if SWA could wave a magic wand, they would turn all 25 of them into -300s for the extra revenue capability and fleet commonality. Anyone have some insight into F9's decision to go with (and now more of) the A318?
Click to expand...

Why buy the -700's instead of the -800 or -900. For F9 it's aquisition cost. Initially the plan was to break into markets with the 318 then move to the 319, but now considering what a POS the 318 is, Airbus can't give them away so were getting more. Good idea?? Who knows. I do know gate space will become an even bigger problem now considering the 318 can only park on the North side of concourse A. Only time will tell.
 
monkeybrains01 said:
but now considering what a POS the 318 is, Airbus can't give them away .... I do know gate space will become an even bigger problem now considering the 318 can only park on the North side of concourse A. Only time will tell.
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What makes the 318 a POS? When they first arrived they had some computer problems or something but they got that all sorted out right? Was there something else that has been lingering with them?

As for gates space and parking on the north side. I don't see the big deal. I have seen the 318 go under the bridge and it fit just fine, and that was on the taxiway too, not between AA and AS. I know they claim that if the nose gear collapsed the tail would hit the bridge but I don't think that is any different than the 319 or even 320. They could still use 318s on the southside and not allow them to go under the bridge. Last I saw 801 had a placard put in there saying not to go under the bridge anyway. The thing that would cause some problems is some of the ground equipment such as the beltloaders that only fit on the 318 are located on the north side. They need to get some universal belt loaders for the whole fleet.
 
F9 Buff said:
What makes the 318 a POS? quote]

It isn't. The A-318 is just fine. When it first came out it had some quirks, but they have been resolved for the most part. Like all Airbi the aircraft flies as well as the pilot managing it, or more correctly; as well as the pilot understands it. Having said that, I would rather fly the A-320.
Click to expand...
 
I haven't had any problems with the 318 in awhile. Whatever they did in the last software change seems like it did the trick!
 
monkeybrains01 said:
Why buy the -700's instead of the -800 or -900. For F9 it's aquisition cost.
Click to expand...

For SWA I believe the -700 hits the "sweet spot." We operate increasingly long haul flights out of some short runways (MDW & Orange County, for example), and the -700 has better performance in these operations than the bigger 737NGs. Plus, maintaining the standard 137-seat configuration through as much of the fleet as possible (those dang -500s again!) greatly simplifies the operation...especially during non-normal ops.
 
What engines are the A320's going to have? We used to operate A320's in all coach configuration with 174 seats. Many times with a butt in every seat we had to make a packs off takeoff with the IAE V2500 engines, even from sea level airports. Denver in the summer wouldn't work w/o leaving somebody behind.
 

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