Frontier Files For Ch. 11 Bankruptcy Protection....

[Windsor]

Don't say stuff like that! Props are still for boats.:beer:

And Rugby......

 

[rogerwilcoout]

This was hashed out in a previous thread but I think the consensus was that the 170 is between 3500 and 4200 lbs an hour.

By contrast the Q400 is 2000-2300 lbs an hour for basically the same number of seats.

F9 has wanted out of the RAH contract for a while, I'm guessing the is one of the goals of Chapter 11.

They are still fairly solvent, just wanted to use Chapter 11 to get more cash on hand, I would be surprised to see a shutdown.. like many major carriers they will hopefully come out of Ch 11 different but alive

Obviously a knucklehead that is ill informed or he is just spouting off at the piehole with no real source. Idiot, at least know the facts before spouting off !

 

[luvz2fli]

It works out in terms of speed, but that doesn't nearly offset the fuel burn. Take a 900 mile leg for instance. The Q does it in about 3 hours and burns about 6500lbs total, the E-Jet does it in 2:15 which is still a burn of about 8500 lbs. Sure passengers like the jet more and its faster but if the prop does it for 300 lbs less fuel and thus saves the company a grand a leg, guess which they are going with..

As much as I am not a lover of CHQ and their 170-175 operation, I would much rather see that succeed than the Q. People like Colgan get paid a joke of a salary to play a 70 seater and people are dumb enough to take it. Good luck CHQ if you are affected by Frontier. I'd much rather see you succeed. Horizon Air pays good for Q service. At least it's respectable on their Q. F the bigger for less pay ideas.

 

[cale42]

Obviously a knucklehead that is ill informed or he is just spouting off at the piehole with no real source. Idiot, at least know the facts before spouting off !

Um WHAT????

Based on what you bolded either you are arguing that the Q and the 170 don't have roughly the same number of seats.. I'm pretty sure thats indisputable. Or that F9 doesn't want to get of Republic... thats a pretty accepted fact around DEN.. not my doing..

Oh and to the guy that wants all prop operators to fail because they get paid less.. I don't even know where to begin. Maybe if some succeeded we would see prop rates improve.. but the fact of the matter is as long as pilots see prop drivers as second rate(many do) companies will do the same. I however beleive props are likely the future of the airlines again and think we should support prop ops and helping get their rates up..

oh and by the way Horizon pays more on a smaller jet.. so don't laud them..

 

[Gr82Aviate]

Um WHAT????

Based on what you bolded either you are arguing that the Q and the 170 don't have roughly the same number of seats.. I'm pretty sure thats indisputable. Or that F9 doesn't want to get of Republic... thats a pretty accepted fact around DEN.. not my doing..

Oh and to the guy that wants all prop operators to fail because they get paid less.. I don't even know where to begin. Maybe if some succeeded we would see prop rates improve.. but the fact of the matter is as long as pilots see prop drivers as second rate(many do) companies will do the same. I however beleive props are likely the future of the airlines again and think we should support prop ops and helping get their rates up..

oh and by the way Horizon pays more on a smaller jet.. so don't laud them..

Don't they pay considerably more on the 400Q than any other U.S. carrier??

 

[cale42]

Horizon does pay more on the Q400 than any other US operator. They also pay more on the CR7 than anyone else. However they pay considerably more on a smaller jet than the bigger Q.. so they are no better than anyone else as the previous poster was trying to contend...

 

[Gr82Aviate]

Horizon does pay more on the Q400 than any other US operator. They also pay more on the CR7 than anyone else. However they pay considerably more on a smaller jet than the bigger Q.. so they are no better than anyone else as the previous poster was trying to contend...

I don't think the difference is that big...not sure, but believe it's less than 5%? Since the 700 is at least 5% faster, paying a little less on the Q seems about right?!

 

[luvz2fli]

Oh and to the guy that wants all prop operators to fail because they get paid less.. I don't even know where to begin. Maybe if some succeeded we would see prop rates improve.. but the fact of the matter is as long as pilots see prop drivers as second rate(many do) companies will do the same. I however beleive props are likely the future of the airlines again and think we should support prop ops and helping get their rates up..

oh and by the way Horizon pays more on a smaller jet.. so don't laud them..

You may be right in the fact that props are the future of airlines. I never said I want all prop operators to fail. The fact is, when you compare the two rates, jet operators generally do make more money. Horizon pays good for the Q. I do not have a desire to fly bigger planes for less than I make now. In doing so at one company, you are basically driving down the salaries for everyone. "Oh well if you don't want to fly for that price, I'll go to X company, they certainly have people who will."

This is the reason that we have regionals. There was someone willing to do it for less. It's like Bill Maher said about first year FO pay, (no I am not a fan of the show but...), we should be saying "would you like fries with this landing?" I love what I do, but to keep taking on more responsibility and lives in our hands and keep going down in salary is just stupid. Bill collectors don't take credit for payment.

Btw, as for the smaller jet comment, I'll take more pay on that any day of the week. Money makes the world go round.

 

[cale42]

luvz2fli.. sorry if I jumped down your throat a little.. I agree with what your saying in general. It is absolute crap that all 121 planes are not treated the same and paid by size. No doubt about it. However tprops have always been deemed inferior, by pilots, by the public, and by the companies.

I've worked for 2 all prop operators and I get tired of being deemed a sellout because I fly a big plane for less. I made my decision on where to work based on a wide array of issues.

For my part I have and will continue to fight nail and tooth at my company to get appropriate rates for the size of the plane, thats my contribution.

The smaller jet comment was just to point out that no operator treats props farily including horizon.. I wholeheartedly agree money is what matters.

I don't have SJS or big airplane hardon (BAH) I've long said that if I could make $200K a year and be home 23 nights a month flying a Skyhawk.. well then sign me up..

 

[rtmcfi]

Actually, I am pretty sure the guys at horizon get paid what their seniority will hold, not what they actually fly. You end up with newer guys flying the biggest planes for the lowest wages, and senior guys flying the smallest a/c on property for the highest wages.

 

[DOVPILOT]

Frontier files Ch. 11... (CNN.com)

FrontierAirlines.com Statement...

Here's to hoping they can pull through this one...

 

[McNasty]

What does a 170 typically burn at 350 at .76?

Jet A

 

[WSurf]

Jet A

It only took you 16 posts on FI to become a smarta$$. Nice!! LOL

 

[luvz2fli]

Jet A

Haha I have to admit I thought the answer is pretty funny

 

[luvz2fli]

luvz2fli.. sorry if I jumped down your throat a little.. I agree with what your saying in general. It is absolute crap that all 121 planes are not treated the same and paid by size. No doubt about it. However tprops have always been deemed inferior, by pilots, by the public, and by the companies.

I've worked for 2 all prop operators and I get tired of being deemed a sellout because I fly a big plane for less. I made my decision on where to work based on a wide array of issues.

For my part I have and will continue to fight nail and tooth at my company to get appropriate rates for the size of the plane, thats my contribution.

The smaller jet comment was just to point out that no operator treats props farily including horizon.. I wholeheartedly agree money is what matters.

I don't have SJS or big airplane hardon (BAH) I've long said that if I could make $200K a year and be home 23 nights a month flying a Skyhawk.. well then sign me up..

No worries. You have every right to voice your opinion and back up what you believe just like the next guy. Don't worry, I didn't take offense.

As for the turboprops being the same, I am pretty sure they will always be inferior. Or maybe not inferior, but companies have decided that they can pay the pilots less, they will accept it because we don't know why, you guys just do, and the company gets to pocket more of the profits.

Nobody gets paid right at the regional level. You might fly half way across the country in a jet and you're still only making 19-23 an hour first year pay. On a side note, if you make less than 19, I must say are you an idiot? 19 is barely livable so unless you're at home and mom and dad still pay all the bills, you just can't do it. CFI jobs do not count for this pay thought though.

 

[Peter Griffin]

I don't think the difference is that big...not sure, but believe it's less than 5%? Since the 700 is at least 5% faster, paying a little less on the Q seems about right?!

THATS the problem right there! A long while ago, when aviation was first starting, pilots were paid by speed of the aircraft. However, as aircraft became faster that needed to change, and thats why we are paid by capacity now. Problem is, people still look at a turboprop and say, "well, its just a prop plane" and somehow use that as justification to pay less than a comparable jet, EVEN IF HAS THE SAME CAPACITY! Especially now that the Q goes significantly faster than any regional prop before it and almost as fast as a jet. Just my .02 cents.

 

[luvz2fli]

THATS the problem right there! A long while ago, when aviation was first starting, pilots were paid by speed of the aircraft. However, as aircraft became faster that needed to change, and thats why we are paid by capacity now. Problem is, people still look at a turboprop and say, "well, its just a prop plane" and somehow use that as justification to pay less than a comparable jet, EVEN IF HAS THE SAME CAPACITY! Especially now that the Q goes significantly faster than any regional prop before it and almost as fast as a jet. Just my .02 cents.

Yes it goes almost as fast as a regional jet. SO WHY DO THESE GUYS KEEP ACCEPTING THESE WAGES THAT ARE SO LOW?!!!!

 

[ReverseSensing]

Actually, I am pretty sure the guys at horizon get paid what their seniority will hold, not what they actually fly.

This is true for FOs, but not for CAs.

CAs are paid for what they fly.

QX 18 year CA payscale on the CRJ 700 is $120.52/hour versus $110.88/hour for the Q400.

 

[rtmcfi]

This is true for FOs, but not for CAs.

CAs are paid for what they fly.

QX 18 year CA payscale on the CRJ 700 is $120.52/hour versus $110.88/hour for the Q400.

Thanks for correcting me!