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From the, you've got to be kidding me file

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G4G5

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 20, 2002
Posts
1,800
Plane That Hit Queens Neighborhood Subject To Maritime Laws

DOW JONES NEWSWIRES
May 10, 2006 11:01 a.m.

--
NEW YORK (AP)--The crash of American Airlines Flight 587 in a quiet residential neighborhood nearly five years ago is subject to general maritime laws, a judge ruled Tuesday, allowing potentially higher damages for dozens of people who sued.
U.S. District Judge Robert W. Sweet said it didn't matter that the plane crashed on land in Queens, killing 260 people on the plane and five on the ground. He noted that the plane was on a 1,500-mile transoceanic flight to the Dominican Republic.
"There can be no question that, but for the development of air travel, this trip - or some portion thereof - would have been conducted by a waterborne vessel and that it therefore bears a significant relationship to traditional maritime activity," the judge wrote in a 78-page opinion analyzing the issue.
Flight 587 had just taken off from John F. Kennedy International Airport on Nov. 12, 2001, when a section of its tail tore away as its pilot battled turbulence.
Numerous lawsuits were filed, though all have been settled except for those involving eight passengers and three people killed on the ground and more than 20 cases involving injury or property damage on the ground.
The judge noted in his ruling that there was no direct precedent for the facts at stake in the plane crash and that the defendants contended a plane must crash on the high seas, far from land, to be subject to maritime laws. Such laws generally allow for broader reasons for giving damages.
The judge said the aircraft's vertical stabilizer, a large metal and composite structure, plummeted into Jamaica Bay from an altitude of about 2,500 feet and was retrieved with the use of a crane.
"The general features of the incident may be described fairly as a large piece of an aircraft sinking in navigable waters," he said.
He said it was of no consequence whether Jamaica Bay is used for commercial traffic.
He said the accident also qualified as a maritime disaster because it falls within a class of incidents that have potential effects on maritime commerce and because it was a transoceanic flight that bears a significant relationship to traditional maritime activity.
Lawyers for the defendants - American Airlines; its Fort Worth, Texas, parent, AMR Corp. (AMR); and the plane's maker, Airbus Industrie G.I.E. - didn't immediately return telephone messages for comment Tuesday.
A lawyer for the plaintiffs, Robert Spragg, said he had not seen the ruling and could not comment
 
According to the NTSB this accident falls directly on the ability and training of the AA pilot.........

I bet the plan for the trip did not include this event. Perhaps your tag line for fuel should be amended. How much was AA paying per bbl when this occured? Also, what is AA plan for fuel this year? Sounds like they want the employees to pay for the fuel with the announcement of needing major cost cuts.

Facts are facts and we can talk about others if you wish.
 
Dude you are on my Ignore List so don't waste your time, I can't (nor do I want to see) what you post
 
Why? I don't think that it's that unreasonable. The truth is that it was a flight operating on an international flight plan. Doesn't matter that it crashed before leaving the US, or why it crashed.

If it had been a flight to Florida it would have been subject to domestic limitations.

If you look at a lot of lawsuits that have been filed previously for international aviation many of them have influence from maritime statutes or precedence.
 
Read the fine print on the ticket. When you purchase an international ticket you are agreeing to the term and conditions of the Warsaw convention. Plain and simple, I don't agree with it but the fact still remains it applies to EVERY international airline ticket sold.

This was established in 1929, this does not apply to Maritime Law.
 
This is something that AA will have to work with for awhile. Perhaps they can use some of their WA lawyers time to argue this. Also didn't Crandall get lost in his boat while sailing around the world after he retired? Is there a precedent in the case of US vs Fishburn that one company can be held to the legal maritime laws when that company's former CEO has proven he can not sail outside of the breakwater.
 
32LT10 said:
According to the NTSB this accident falls directly on the ability and training of the AA pilot.........

Yeah... and according to the NTSB, TWA 800 suffered a fuel tank explosion.

The NTSB rules according to a hidden agenda in several cases. It is much easier to blame a pilot group and airline training curriculum than to blame the supplier of over half the US fleet. Otherwise, conflict of interest, wouldn't you say?
 
aa73 said:
The NTSB rules according to a hidden agenda in several cases.

Wow, do you have proof of this? Shocking information I am sure you have more to share on this right?
 
32LT10 said:
Wow, do you have proof of this? Shocking information I am sure you have more to share on this right?

Uhhh.... they are part of the US government, aren't they?

Or are you really that naive?
 
32LT10 said:
This is something that AA will have to work with for awhile. Perhaps they can use some of their WA lawyers time to argue this. Also didn't Crandall get lost in his boat while sailing around the world after he retired? Is there a precedent in the case of US vs Fishburn that one company can be held to the legal maritime laws when that company's former CEO has proven he can not sail outside of the breakwater.
hahahahaha
 
ivauir said:
Too many lawyers not enough bullets ....
Yea, that would be great.

You and the government toe to toe in court and you wouldn't even be able to speak the LINGO. Hahahaha, bring it on, get rid of lawyers, the right to due process, the right to assembly, the right to free speech, freedom of press, the right to bear arms.

We dunt kneed none of that thupid stufffs.
 
FN FAL said:
Yea, that would be great.

You and the government toe to toe in court and you wouldn't even be able to speak the LINGO. Hahahaha, bring it on, get rid of lawyers, the right to due process, the right to assembly, the right to free speech, freedom of press, the right to bear arms.

We dunt kneed none of that thupid stufffs.

I never said get rid of ALL the lawyers, just that there are too many.
 
aa73, please accept this as a criticism of the training program and not you personally.

Aircraft certified for part 121 operations: Rudder travel full scale left or right from centerline, not full left to full right or vice versa, the latter possibly exceeding design limitations. That's just the way they're certified.

I knew the pilot from his commuter days and he was a good stick. He was just doing what he was taught.

As concerns the judge's ruling, YGBSM
 
ivauir said:
I never said get rid of ALL the lawyers, just that there are too many.
That's true, just the same with most avocations. We have too many engineers, too many teachers, too many librarians, too many media persons, too many pilots...not enough bullets.

Pol Pot would put a spin on that whole thing, but it's not for me to speak for all those people or bullets. Thank goodness for bullet-in boards.

:beer:


Just freaking with ya dude, lighten up!
 
Vastly Underemp said:
aa73, please accept this as a criticism of the training program and not you personally.

Aircraft certified for part 121 operations: Rudder travel full scale left or right from centerline, not full left to full right or vice versa, the latter possibly exceeding design limitations. That's just the way they're certified.

I knew the pilot from his commuter days and he was a good stick. He was just doing what he was taught.

As concerns the judge's ruling, YGBSM

Say what you may but as far as I am concerned, at 3,000 feet and 250kts their is nothing that a pilot should be able to do to snap the tail off.

It's a lot eaiser to blame it on the training then the composite structure. Especially when the A380 is coming out. Can you imagine what would have happened to Airbus sales if the FAA had the balls to tell people that composite tails can fall apart at 250kts and 3000 feet.
 
G4G5 said:
Can you imagine what would have happened to Airbus sales if the FAA had the balls to tell people that composite tails can fall apart at 250kts and 3000 feet.
I heard the Deep Sea Diver's Union is moaning about all the shards, but it's all hear and say.
 
Thedude said:
the dude, F-14's had composite vertical stabilizers and they stayed on.

Execept for when the navy pushed them off the carriers and they landed on the bottom of the sea by the coast of Spain. Then they broke off, creating a hazard for the divers, who had to recover the little missiles so the Russian fishing trawlers wouldn't accidentally find them in their gill nets.

It's a long story, but it happened before you were a gleam in your daddy's eye, so don't stress yourself out over it.
 
Last edited:
FN FAL said:
the dude, F-14's had composite vertical stabilizers and they stayed on.

Execept for when the navy pushed them off the carriers and they landed on the bottom of the sea by the coast of Spain. Then they broke off, creating a hazard for the divers, who had to recover the little missiles so the Russian fishing trawlers wouldn't accidentally find them in their gill nets.

It's a long story, but it happened before you were a gleam in your daddy's eye, so don't stress yourself out over it.

Once again you make a thread into something it is not and I hoped I deleted that message before anyone read it. I put a lot of stock into what those 2 MX guys say They have been around a long time and usually know what they are talking about not to metion the fact there are known delaminating rudder problems with the A-300.
Just to let you know I was already alive several years before the f-14 went into service and flying before that incident ever happened. Why dont you just go back to telling guys, at your local airport, how great you are (in your C-208) and being a rent-a-cop.
I am picking on you because you flight a small airplane? No.. I am stating that you poke your nose in and give advice when you dont have the background or experence to back it up. You remind me of another guy that I used to fly with. He starting flying later in life and also had a chip on his shoulder. Primarly against the guys that were younger than him (ie. me and a couple of others) He used to like to give adivice thas would be a wrong even though he was positive he was correct. Not to metion the fact he couldn't fly his way out of a paper bag. So get over yourself.
 
Vastly Underemp said:
aa73, please accept this as a criticism of the training program and not you personally.

Aircraft certified for part 121 operations: Rudder travel full scale left or right from centerline, not full left to full right or vice versa, the latter possibly exceeding design limitations. That's just the way they're certified.

I knew the pilot from his commuter days and he was a good stick. He was just doing what he was taught.

As concerns the judge's ruling, YGBSM

Vastly-

I was never a proponent of AA's "AAMP" (Advanced Aircraft Maneuvering Program) that was taught by an old F-100 Super Sabre fighter pilot. That program specifically focused on heavy use of the rudder to get out of unusual attitudes. in other words, it went against everything I learned in primary flight training - that is, use the rudder as a last resort when the ailerons "run out."

That said, as G4G5 pointed out, the fact that the tail snapped off BELOW the aircraft's maneuvering speed (240kts, to be exact), doesn't inspire a lot of faith in Airbus products. I don't care whether you bang the rudder full left and center it, or bang it full left and reverse it right - if the aircraft is not tested for those kinds of maneuvers below maneuvering speed, then it shouldn't be certified.

As far as the ruling - it's happened a lot more than you think. Your own airline's controversial 1996 disaster should make you a believer. The NTSB in no way will even suggest that Airbus- which supplies over half the US fleet - is delinquent. But they are. Air Transat had an A310 whose rudder delaminated in flight - with no maneuvers!
 

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