From Apaad We Won!!

[ATRCAPT]

Senate passed HR 4343 by unanimous consent this evening at roughly 2145.

When Bush signs it, it's law.

Hayes, etc. will present it to White House tomorrow AM to try to get this signed
ASAP.

More info tomorrow.

Don't use so many exclamation points you moron. This is NOT good news...

 

[Patriot328]

Everybody else wins in that they now have the choice to enhance their retirement savings, by working beyond 60, if necessary.

I agree wholeheartedly that the person most screwed by this is the one that retired yesterday (heck, I'll concede that even UndauntedFlyer got the shaft earlier this year, despite my contempt for his arrogant persona on this board).


I do have contention with the idea that pilots now have a choice to "enhance" their career earnings by working past 60. Because of the rule change, everything is delayed by 5 years. If you were going to upgrade tomorrow, but with the rule change, you now upgrade 5 years from now, you just lost that pay differential for 5 years. That's easily $300k at a major. You will now have to work a couple years, at least, past age 60 to make up that extra money. Factor in the lost B-fund contributions and the compound interest, the total career losses can be doubled if you still want out at 60.


The damage done will vary from carrier and from pilot to pilot, but don't think for a second that this rule change didn't cost EVERYONE something. If you want to make as much career earnings as you were going to as of yesterday, get ready to work a few years past 60. So instead of a few unfortunate being screwed, everyone is.

 

[Hutchman]

Senate passed HR 4343 by unanimous consent this evening at roughly 2145.

When Bush signs it, it's law.

Hayes, etc. will present it to White House tomorrow AM to try to get this signed
ASAP.

More info tomorrow.

www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h110-4343

 

[Patriot328]

I wanna talk about me, me, me me...

SFF, really, what do you think APAAD was doing? It wasn't about "the profession". Anyone who believes that is a moron. This was about money, plain and simple. All the "experienced pilot" rhetoric is nothing but a smokescreen.

They're the true "me generation".


What they just told me as a young buck was "son, you're going to just have to work more for the same amount because this is the right thing to do (for us seniors)."

 

[Andy Neill]

The Senate does not pass House Bills. HR is the House of Reps. If the Senate passed a bill it would have an "S" in front of it. I am not saying that it didn't get passed, but HR 4343 is not the bill the Senate passed.

Not quite. Bills are numbered by the House of origination. Any bill (except a revenue bill) may be started in either house. When it goes to the other house for consideration, it will retain the numbering from the other house. When the House passes HR1234, it will be HR1234 when the Senate acts on it.

 

[aircowboy]

December 13, 2007

The bill doesn't take affect for 30 days.

 

[Luke's Dad]

Hey Undaunted Moron, ever wonder why you can still even type?

Table 1 – Actuarial Study of lifespan vs. age at retirement.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Age at.......................................... Average Age
Retirement .....................................At Death
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
49.9 .....................................................86
51.2 .....................................................85.3
52.5 .....................................................84.6
53.8 .....................................................83.9
55.1 .....................................................83.2
56.4 .....................................................82.5
57.2 .....................................................81.4
58.3 .....................................................80
59.2 .....................................................78.5
60.1 .....................................................76.8
61 ........................................................74.5
62.1 .....................................................71.8
63.1 .....................................................69.3
64.1 .....................................................67.9
65.2......................................................66.8

I don't think the new legislation will keep you in indentured servitude until 65. Retire at 49 and live to 86. Enjoy life. I hope you are senior to me

 

[Deadalus]

Sounds like you just want something (money) for nothing. I've got an idea for you, its called work for pay. Or maybe you just should quit now and become a wellfare burden on society.

Nice try, but if you'd worked hard and half way took care of you're money you wouldn't have to work to 60. Staying at home more would also help you're chances at not getting divorced.

 

[Deadalus]

Hey Undaunted Moron, ever wonder why you can still even type?

Table 1 – Actuarial Study of lifespan vs. age at retirement.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Age at.......................................... Average Age
Retirement .....................................At Death
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
49.9 .....................................................86
51.2 .....................................................85.3
52.5 .....................................................84.6
53.8 .....................................................83.9
55.1 .....................................................83.2
56.4 .....................................................82.5
57.2 .....................................................81.4
58.3 .....................................................80
59.2 .....................................................78.5
60.1 .....................................................76.8
61 ........................................................74.5
62.1 .....................................................71.8
63.1 .....................................................69.3
64.1 .....................................................67.9
65.2......................................................66.8

Great table, Ive always thought 55 would be a good age for retirement. Now with this 65 garbage maybe I'll look at harder at something else. There are a lot of jobs out there I think you could safely do past 60 without hurting you're health or someone else, this job isn't one of them.

 

[Flopgut]

To those of you who are opposed to this change in the Age 60 rule, what would your position have been back when ALPA fought the imposition of the rule by American Airlines as a company policy and won back through arbitration the jobs of those pilots who were fired by American Airlines back in the 50's? ALPA opposed the imposition of the rule back then. The arbitrator gave those pilots over the age of 60 their jobs back. How would you have felt about the issue back then?

The head of Ameircan Airlines back then worked out a deal with the head of the C.A.B. to implement the Age 60 rule and it stuck back then. Ameircan worked around the ruling of the arbitrator and got the rule implemented by the CAB. It's been with us for six decades. Ironic that APA sought to keep a rule in place that American Airlines management was responsible for and that ALPA successfully fought through arbitration at the time.

So, again, what would your positon have been back then?

You'll be 60 some day. When you have the choice to continue working and some of you will continue to work, what will you think then?

My father started in a DC3 in the early 60s. His fondest memories are of flying with the guys retiring
in his early years. They were skilled, simple, and durable sorts. They did not talk or spend wildly, partially, because they couldn't! The work rules were too bad and the pay was low. And too, their expectations and desires were different. Those old timers died off watching airline pilots make more money than they ever would have dreamed.

The point my father shared with me on this, and the answer to your question: Pilots back then were more interested in increasing pay, building their union, bettering their QOL, and they were also fully committed to safety. Retirement age was an issue, but not the only issue.

It's more relevant to ask what those old pilots would do today than it is to ask what we would think back then. The union is in shambless, pilot pay and QOL are deteriorating fast, safety has a backseat, and that's just the stuff we know about. Things are screwed up, getting worse and the single thing the aged leaders of this profession want today is a little more time for themselves.