Freedom Airlines Accepts J4J.......

[Britpilot]

Freedom takes pilot jobs from Mesa, Mesa takes jobs from America West and U.S. Airways. The regional pilots who are willing to work for peanuts now have it come right back to them. Shame on you. To hear a regional pilot complain of being undercutted by another carrier is laughable.

For those who work at Mesa be glad J.O. posts a "paper" loss every year and doesn't have to pay you a pay raise. It keeps you employed. If things are so bad then please leave and find employment elsewhere in this wide open job market.

I personally fly for a corporation that considers us as part of a team and not as an adversary. This is a relationship that has been cultivated on both sides. ALPA and its members should try it sometime.

With 3800 hours and right seat in a baby king air you know it all. You know nothing. Stay in your little corporation and keep kissing the corporate ass and don't rant about things of which you know nothing. Moron.

 

[captjim]

With 3800 hours and right seat in a baby king air you know it all. You know nothing. Stay in your little corporation and keep kissing the corporate ass and don't rant about things of which you know nothing. Moron.

You tell that idiot Nigel!

 

[ksu_aviator]

I use to work at a union carrier so you can flame me if you want, but I am talking from experience.

My experience has been that the union does what they can to upset management in order to get what they want. The guise is that its a sign of solidarity. Hardly! The only purpose it serves is to polarize and radicalize those that are so inclined. Then, if any one else thinks differently they are chastized by the radicalized union members. Of course, another side effect is that management becomes enraged and is no longer willing to negotiate.

Think about it. Who would give someone money or time off for doing things to ruin operations or your reputation? Why would any one work with employees that are determined to defy any wish you have?

The other day, on my last trip with this company, I heard a union rep arguing his point with a senior pilot in our company. His arguments where simple sound bites that are designed incite anger and had no logical basis. Examples: "It underminds the contract" and "Its costing us jobs." The senior captain was making logical arguements using facts and common sense. Who won, well the senior captain was very quickly surrounded by the radicalized unionites and shamed into saying what they wanted him too.

This is why I am against unions now. I have seen how they work first hand and I must say they go against everything I believe in. I.e. hard work, honesty and loyalty. Remember a company hires you to solve a problem not create one. Unions create problems.

Let the flaming begin, BTW I know what you'll say. Unions are neccessary because management will screw us if we don't. Look at how FEDEX was before unions. They where given $1/hr better than the highest paid major in the country, then they got a union and lost flying to feeders. You will also say I'm management, scab, uninformed, stupid, or use some other ignorant grade school name calling. If you are going to flame me try to use a logical argument, I won't respond to anything that doesn't have some logic to it.

 

[trainerjet]

ksu..

I see no reason to flame you or call you names...however, I do see with clarity that your opinion is based on very limited experience. And at one company which currently finds itself in contract negotiations, along with the whole situation of buying another carrier to perhaps use as leverage.

So, you can talk all you want about your "experience". It is, however, EXTREMELY limited...and therefore, cannot provide you with much knowledge. Only what you saw at Mesaba...in the brief time you were there. And probably, only to the extent that it affected you.

Obviously, you've decided that "unions create problems" based on this vast "experience". And because of this, there is no "logic" that can change your mind...so why bother?

 

[ksu_aviator]

Very unique trainerjet, calling people names by implying it rather than coming out and saying it. Kind of a fill in the blank approach. But you did illustrate my point very well. Because I disagree with unions then I must be uninformed or ignorant or whatever word you prefer. Why can't it be an intelligent decision?

 

[trainerjet]

All I did was point out that your experienced point of view comes from a very limited time with one particular airline.

You filled in the blanks yourself. And quite nicely, I might add.

PS. The words "ignorant" and "uninformed" are also your own.

 

[racerX]

All the name calling aside, what Freedom is doing is hurting the profession. I'm not advocating they quit, but neither should they accept j4j. The Freedom pilots need to change things to help our industry or the pilots of every other unionized airline will change things for them. You don't get something for free. You sell us out, you don't get the jumpseat. If I am the interviewer at an airline and a Freedom pilot comes for an interview, he/she is not getting the job. I won't infect any pilot group with people who opperate like that. Perhaps they can't speak up because they are afraid that, without a contract, they would get fired. Why don't they unionize? Because then management wouldn't give them the big planes? That makes them the selfish ones we think them to be.

Why should only mainline pilots fly a/c over 50 seats? Why not let the regonals fly 737's or 757/767's. Why dosen't United buy skywest and transfer all flying to them and furlough all their pilots. That would cut costs. In fact, why don't we furlough all pilots and hire any teenager that is fliping burgurs to come and fly for min. wage. That would save money and free up a bunch of burger jobs for all of us!

 

[ksu_aviator]

I am the interviewer at an airline and a Freedom pilot comes for an interview, he/she is not getting the job.

Hey why not say if you work at Great Lakes I won't hire you either. Or if you paid for your CFI I won't hire you. Where do you draw the line? Freedom pilots are just pilots. Every one knows how this job market is.

It shouldn't suprise anyone that a carrier like Freedom popped up. Airlines have to cut costs. Majors airlines do anyway. Why do you think all the regionals are picking up so much flying? Every one flying for a regional airline is doing the same thing to the industry that Freedom is. We just chose to blame them for our problems rather than looking with in.

Back to my point though. Not hiring a Freedom pilot because he/she was in a pinch and needed a job is assanine. It also illustrates the mob mentallity that I was talking about before. "Do what we say or else." But hey if you guys want to keep illustrating why unions aren't as wonderful as you think keep posting.

 

[I.P. Freley]

Don't you understand, KSU? All unions and all union decisions good. All companies and all company decisions bad. *grunt grunt drool drool*

Not to worry, you have at least one person on your side... But then again I am blinkered, too, I guess... Since I don't blindly follow the union line and come to the simpleminded conclusion that unions (mine or anyone else's) are always right and any company that isn't unionized is full of blabbering troglodytes who enjoy the feeling of KY between their buttocks.

Unfortunately you were more correct than just about any poster yet on this thread when you referred to "radicalized" unionites... If I only had a nickel for each time I'd been subjected to rah-rah union hacks yammering on about how stupid management is (without bothering to address their own equally questionable agendas), I'd be able to pay my union dues without dipping into my paycheck.

To me (and many other "uninformed" individuals), the good that unions do is all too frequently overshadowed by the harm that they so lovingly labor to inflict upon their own "brothers." Very similar, in fact, to the harm that radical feminists do to their own cause when they trivialize issues by doing silly things like renaming a woman's menstrual cycle "femstruation", because God forbid one would use the letters "m-e-n" in such a word. The kneejerk union responses to many issues are just as infuriating to the rank-and-file as "femhole covers" are to thinking people. The automatic assumption that everything the union tries to do is beneficial to the cause of the pilots is not only wrong, it's dangerously stupid.

In any case, refusing jumpseats to other pilots whose COMPANY policies you don't agree with just makes me shake my head in wonderment. Unless they personally offend me when they walk into my cockpit, any pilot, for any company, is welcome in my jumpseat. I respect that people need to work and working at Blockbuster instead of flying for Freedom simply isn't an option. Pilots fly... Get over it and don't be so sanctimonious as to refuse a ride to someone who simply wants to feed his/her family.

 

[earlthesquirrel]

Hey KSU_AVIATIOR good post. You notice how when a person says something negative about a union the automatically get called names? Freedom airlines is an airline of the unions' making. It was a way for J.O. to get around portions of the contract that alpa has with America West and U.S. Airways. I know one person at Freedom and he loves it. It is unfortunate that he will be blackballed for the rest of his career.

 

[azpilot]

Back to my point though. Not hiring a Freedom pilot because he/she was in a pinch and needed a job is assanine. It also illustrates the mob mentallity that I was talking about before. "Do what we say or else." But hey if you guys want to keep illustrating why unions aren't as wonderful as you think keep posting.

Lot's of people are in a pinch and this shouldn't be used as an excuse to work for a company with unacceptable pay rates and a company that is designed to bust the union of the parent. When you prostitute yourself in the end nothing good comes of it. It doesn't matter if you are in a union or not. I am not a part of a union and would never work for an outfit like Freedom. It is just plain wrong. For the type of equipment that Freedom flies the rates and working conditions should be better. Lots what was promised to the folks at Freedom isn't happening, go figure. Why would you trust someone like JO?

I think you would be really pissed if someone walked up to your employer and said I will do his/her job for less and the employer took them up on it. This is vastly different from free enterprise like Southwest competing with United. You have people that were at Mesa who thumbed their noses at their fellow workers to take a shortcut to get more PIC and fly in "better equipment." You have people that were FO's on a 1900 and are now Captains at Freedom with a senority number vastly lower than those who deserve the opportunity. That will come back to get them and they deserve it.

What about your value? What about your experience? Too bad the general public doesn't know how little flight time some of the Freedom pilots have. They would probably run off the plane. Because when the sh!t hits the fan the pilots lack of experience may come back to haunt them.

People need to quit being so f'ing selfish and think about what is good for the industry as a whole. Don't forget without a union they can fire you with no cause and you have no one to turn to for help.

Whether you like unions or not they are a reality in the airline industry. For the time being if you piss these folks off you will not get hired at a union carrier. Plain and simple.

Just say no to Freedom.

 

[ksu_aviator]

I think you would be really pissed if someone walked up to your employer and said I will do his/her job for less and the employer took them up on it.

I would be upset, but most employers realize that cheap doesn't always mean better. How many here by the cheapest car around versus the best car you can afford? I could have easily bought a 1970 Nova for $100 but would it be the best ride? No. Same goes for employees.

People need to quit being so f'ing selfish and think about what is good for the industry as a whole.

This right here is what scares me the most. Why not just directly quote Stalin and say Each shall give according to his ability and each shall receive according to his need. That isn't the exact quote, but close enough.

 

[azpilot]

I would be upset, but most employers realize that cheap doesn't always mean better.

Uh, what do you think JO is doing? He started a new airline to hire cheaper labor. He obviously thinks cheaper is better.

This right here is what scares me the most. Why not just directly quote Stalin and say Each shall give according to his ability and each shall receive according to his need. That isn't the exact quote, but close enough.

What does this have to do with Stalin? Those that are selfish are the ones taking jobs that do not pay enough, give proper benefits, etc. This is what is hurting the industry. Those that cut corners are screwing the industry not those that try to stay united and refuse to fly for companies like Freedumb.

We will never agree and only time will tell who is right. Take your chances with an outfit like Freedom and see where your career goes. I know that NOT flying at a place like Freedom will never hurt my career. Just ask the losers who failed training and are now back flying at Mesa. Think they have any friends anymore? Nope. They should have been required to quit Mesa and now be on the street.

- AZPilot

 

[earlthesquirrel]

What do you mean when you say "what is good for the industry"? Do you mean what is good for pilots? What is good for companies? What is good for the traveller? It seems that when pilots talk of the "industry" it is almost exclusively means what is happenning to their pay and benefits. Well that is not the industry. To blackball a person for flying for Freedom is just wrong.

What if the pilots at Freedom vote to bring alpa to the property, will that bring them back into people's good graces?

When Skywest takes over routes from Air Wisc. why aren't they all blackballed??

 

[azpilot]

What do you mean when you say "what is good for the industry"? Do you mean what is good for pilots? What is good for companies? What is good for the traveller? It seems that when pilots talk of the "industry" it is almost exclusively means what is happenning to their pay and benefits. Well that is not the industry. To blackball a person for flying for Freedom is just wrong.

What if the pilots at Freedom vote to bring alpa to the property, will that bring them back into people's good graces?

When Skywest takes over routes from Air Wisc. why aren't they all blackballed??

What is good for the industry are healthy airlines that treat all employees with respect and fair wages. Nice pipe dream I know. I would select Southwest as the perfect model. Employees, in my opinion, are paid a fair wage. Employees are happy, customers are happy, stock holders are happy. People like JO only screw up the industry by trying to tear it apart. I said nothing about ALPA and in my opinion NO it would not put the people at Freedom in good graces. Those that were Mesa pilots should have stayed at Mesa and fought to keep the 700 flying within Mesa with one list. The courts have already decided that all of the JO airlines need to be under one list and this will happen with Freedom.

"When Skywest takes over routes from Air Wisc. why aren't they all blackballed?? "

Get a clue for the last time. Did Air Wisconsin start Skywest and then farm the flying out to cheaper labor? No! Is Skywest attempting to bust a union at Air Wisconsin? No! Do pilots at Skywest and Air Wisconsin make comparable wages? From what I understand, yes. Competition by seperate competing airlines is entirely different than Freedom. Freedom was set up under Mesa's roof with the sole purpose of downsizing Mesa. If you don't understand that you understand nothing. Go apply at Freedom and have fun.

I am done arguing this point. As I said by not flying at Freedom I risk nothing with regards to my career. Those that want to good luck.

You seem to have a poor understanding of what people like Jonathan Ornstein are doing to the industry.

 

[hhab]

"What if the pilots at Freedom vote to bring alpa to the property, will that bring them back into people's good graces"

-----------------


I will ALWAYS carry the Freedom List in my bag, no mather what happends.
Anyway, before that happends the pilotgroup must be pis#ed at management. The current pilot group are to much of management "wannabies" for that to happend. Give it a year or two and wait and see, history always repeats itself...At that point JO will start another ununionized company to undercut them, calling them Lorenzo express or something. That ladies and gentlemen was whole point of starting a company like Freedom. NOTHING to do with scope at all..

Comprende?

 

[AAflyer]

Azpilot,

You are right on with your posts. A few of these people still don't get it, it is not just about unions. It is about what JO has done and will continue to do. People will rationalize all they want to get a flying job, especially if it is in a jet.

Suddenly pilot pay is once again the reason for all of aviations prolems. Mangament has been trying to sell this to the public and congress for a while. It seems some of our pilots have been struck by the headlights as well.

The amount of money that UAL was losing would have still been staggering without pilot pay. Failed merger attempt, failed Avolar, and a CEO who couldn't shut his mouth before banks for money caused problems. He screws up royally and gets a multi-million dollar compensation package for leaving, the employees get put on the street and are then told by some of their airline peers that they are greedy.

Delta pilots are paid substancially more than us at AA, yet their losses are considerably less. NWA pilots are paid slightly more than us and they are actually cash flow positive. IT IS NOT ABOUT PILOT PAY!!!!!!!

It is time management takes accountability for their mistakes. It is so easy to screw up and then blame the employees.

As for being paid what SWA is paid, in all due respect they don't fly 777s. If you would like to weight SWA pay to 777 that would be fine, just like some current 70 seat rates are weighted. As for productivity, PILOTS do not make the schedules, I think many would be in favor of a more productive flying schedule. I would!

As for KSUs comments about unions, it is your OPINION and I will respect that, but respect my observation that your experience with this IS limited.

As a union pilot I would like to see a profitable company. I am for all practical purposes married to this airline. I can not jump ship like managment to other airlines without giving up my seniority, or even jump to another business all together like these upper managment morons can do. One day they are running Burger Kings or oil companies and the next day they are airline CEOs who know best.

I would do what ever it took to help out my airline, in return I would like to share in the success when the company does well, not fight for a small percent raise while the corporation posts billion dollar profits. I would like to see fiscal responsiblity. If you would like me to take a pay cut because the company is in such dire straits then stop spending money on putting your logo on sports arenas, stop spending money on lobbying congress to attack your employees rights (RLA), stop making stupid aquisitions and pay DOWN debt when extra money is aviable. Last but not least FIX the business model that you worshiped for years. FIX it, do not cut services and then ask labor to take a cut to make up the diffrence because your still bleeding money.


AAflyer

 

[azpilot]

AAFlyer glad you agree and your post was well put as well.

Peace,
AZPilot

 

[100LL... Again!]

I may be off base on this, but wasn't deregulation the thing that spurred the growth of carriers like SWA, Frontier, etc, and made it possible for the regionals to grow like crazy?

What if the unions at the majors had tried (maybe they did try?)and succeeded at stopping it. Most certainly there would be no competition for their jobs. No furloughs. No scope problems. Bargaining power like crazy.

What a wonderful world. Too bad that 50% or more of us could NEVER EVER hope to fly for an airline. Would we be willing to undo that if we could? We'd sure be helpng them out - protecting the profession...



Solidarity within a pilot group is expected. Not crossing another group's picket line is expected.

But: I don't know that I can ask someone to not take a job because somebody else thinks it's hurting the profession.

Before you think that I am a Freedom-sympathizer, I assure you I am not.

I would not go to work there because I PERSONALLY disagree with the whole situation. I don't want to be what many would refer to as one step away from a scab. That is my personal ethic.
If it costs me a job in the short-term, so be it.

I do think it is wrong to find a group of people who want to fly for a living and make them the scapegoat. ***Unless they cross a picket line.*** You get what you negotiate, as the ad says. If you don't hold any cards, you get screwed.

Welcome to the card game.

 

[hhab]

"Solidarity within a pilot group is expected. Not crossing another group's picket line is expected.

But: I don't know that I can ask someone to not take a job because somebody else thinks it's hurting the profession."


-------------------


Agree, but the problem with Freedom pilots ( that went from Mesa to Freedom ) is their lack of solidarity and their selfishness.
I hope for them ( not really...) that their $ 5000- signing bounus and bypassing Mesas senioritylist ( funny... all Freedom Airline pilots are still on this months Mesa Airlines seniority list, newhires included....and rumor tells me that they still use the Mesa ID to try getting a jump-seat........) to fly a 70 seater is worth the price they might have to pay in the future.

Freedom Airlines IS hurting the profession. They allow JO types to form other alter-ego airlines. That is the reason I never even considered joining them.

Another fact remains. If it was not for those pilots, JO would have to go to the negotiating table, just like most other CEO does, and negotiate payscales for those airplanes, and I'll bet that Mesa would have a new contract by now.